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Nextyearfordaboyz

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8 minutes ago, CAPJ said:

100%.

If were going to use "wins" as the measureable for Dak on him being a franchise QB.

Then I fully blame him 100% for us not making the playoffs last year. We controlled our own destiny and we lost in Philly against a team devastated with injuries.

Unfortunately it's not that easy. We have won games where Dak has played poorly. We have also lost games where Dak played well.

Dak is a franchise QB that we can build around, at the right cap hit. He is not on the same tier as the Elite QBs that win regardless of what is around them.

Too many times I have heard, Dak doesnt have enough weapons or our Oline played poorly. He has more at his disposal than Russell Wilson.

Put Wilson on this team, I would pretty much guarantee we are true contenders every year. 

Not saying Dak will ever hit Wilson's current level of play/QB status, but... it's worth noting that his narrative for the first half of his career to this point pretty much reflected Dak's, true or not. Like, sure, he hasn't had as good of an offensive line than Dak, or as many first round picks at receiver, but that Seattle defense gave up like 15 points a game his first 4-5 years. "Lynch carries their offense, Russ is just a game manager who can't carry a team," yadda yadda, this was the consensus despite his increasingly excellent play staring them in the face. Sure enough, it turned out to be poppycock.

It's every bit as unfair to compare Dak after 4 seasons to Wilson after 8 as it is to compare him, as so many have, to Romo in Year 12.

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3 minutes ago, matt79511 said:

Not saying Dak will ever hit Wilson's current level of play/QB status, but... it's worth noting that his narrative for the first half of his career to this point pretty much reflected Dak's, true or not. Like, sure, he hasn't had as good of an offensive line than Dak, or as many first round picks at receiver, but that Seattle defense gave up like 15 points a game his first 4-5 years. "Lynch carries their offense, Russ is just a game manager who can't carry a team," yadda yadda, this was the consensus despite his increasingly excellent play staring them in the face. Sure enough, it turned out to be poppycock.

It's every bit as unfair to compare Dak after 4 seasons to Wilson after 8 as it is to compare him, as so many have, to Romo in Year 12.

And that's fair. Im not saying Dak wont reach Russell's level. He very might well. That's why I believe he is a franchise QB. We could do much much worse.

But I think we can agree that currently Dak<Wilson. Wilson currently is also doing more with less than Dak and he has to, partially because of his cap hit. So if that's the case, why is Dak worth being paid more than Wilson? Just because he is next up?

I have heard too many times on this site, Dak struggled because he didnt have the receivers. The oline needs to play better. Zeke hasnt been efficient. We need to get a better tight end for Dak. Were losing games because of our Defense. So if all of these things need to align for Dak to succeed, then guess what, he isnt worth the money.

Guess what happens when we have to pay Dak that much money. Something has to go and he has to overcome that deficiency or we are just another 7-9/8-8 team.

 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, CAPJ said:

And that's fair. Im not saying Dak wont reach Russell's level. He very might well. That's why I believe he is a franchise QB. We could do much much worse.

But I think we can agree that currently Dak<Wilson. Wilson currently is also doing more with less than Dak and he has to, partially because of his cap hit. So if that's the case, why is Dak worth being paid more than Wilson? Just because he is next up?

I have heard too many times on this site, Dak struggled because he didnt have the receivers. The oline needs to play better. Zeke hasnt been efficient. We need to get a better tight end for Dak. Were losing games because of our Defense. So if all of these things need to align for Dak to succeed, then guess what, he isnt worth the money.

Guess what happens when we have to pay Dak that much money. Something has to go and he has to overcome that deficiency or we are just another 7-9/8-8 team.

 

It's worth noting that we've been a little set back by the Romo and Dez dead money and have mostly been relying on the draft the last few years. After a stellar run 2013-16, the last three years of the decade were a bit of a decline. The '17 and '18 classes both got off to promising starts initially only to take some significant steps back, and '19 is most likely a lost cause. Most Seattle fans who follow the team closely would tell you that their stinkbomb drafts post-2012 had way more to do with them falling off than Wilson's contract.

I think this last class extended our window a bit, we could not afford to botch it and we nailed it. I've pretty much left our 2017 draft for dead, especially now after we drafted two CBs, but I think the '18 group can/will bounce back. And the FO may even be back to giving half a **** about free agency. Like Slam said, there are no excuses anymore, it's go time.

Edited by matt79511

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Crazy how CeeDee Lamb fell to you guys. Gonna be interesting to see how teams match up with all that firepower. His floor is Josh Doctson. 

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1 hour ago, DaBoys said:

Wins? I believe you are in the wrong forum, sir. Here you go:

https://forums.footballsfuture.com/forum/53-baseball/

 

 

Additionally, even if wins were a stat that could be attributed to a single player. Borrow doing it in Cincinnati would be insurmountably more impressive than him coming in on a locked and loaded 2016 Cowboys roster that flexed maybe the greatest offensive line in the history of the sport. 

 

There are so so many other actually relevant stats you can use to argue Dak as a franchise QB. 

Sigh. 

The guy made the argument that Dak needs to show that he can win this year before being considered a franchise QB.

I respond pointing out that Dak has won games.

”Wins aren’t a QB stat!”

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It’s pretty funny to see you compare Dak to Russell as if they are even on the same planet.

For what it’s worth from an outsider Dak is not what I would consider a franchise QB at this point in his career. Has he been good? Sure. Has he ever won in the playoffs? Has he underperformed based on the team around him? Franchise QBs aren’t common, I would say there are probably less than 10 in the league right now.
 

Final thought: You can’t be a franchise QB when you aren’t even the best player on your offense.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, badgers0821 said:

It’s pretty funny to see you compare Dak to Russell as if they are even on the same planet.

For what it’s worth from an outsider Dak is not what I would consider a franchise QB at this point in his career. Has he been good? Sure. Has he ever won in the playoffs? Has he underperformed based on the team around him? Franchise QBs aren’t common, I would say there are probably less than 10 in the league right now.
 

Final thought: You can’t be a franchise QB when you aren’t even the best player on your offense.

Tell that to Kurt Warner who probably wasnt even top 3 on his offense but most would agree he was franchise material. 

Or for that matter Joe Montana, Steve Young, Matt Ryan, plenty of others you can list who were outshines by others around them for being the best at their respective positions. 

Edited by Calvert28

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Dak had his best statistical season of his career yet the team finished 8-8. Sure you can blame Garrett or the defense for this but when Dak played good teams for the most part he played poorly. Anyone who wants to argue this is a homer sorry. Not gonna discuss the games because everyone knows which games they are. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, badgers0821 said:

Final thought: You can’t be a franchise QB when you aren’t even the best player on your offense.

So not unless you're Mahomes, Wilson, or Jackson, basically

edit: and Watson now that they traded Hopkins, but not before that, because reasons

Edited by matt79511

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Lol, I really wish I could just mute any post with "Dak" in it. Might be the least productive conversation topic on here in a last decade.

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1 minute ago, Nextyearfordaboyz said:

Lol, I really wish I could just mute any post with "Dak" in it. Might be the least productive conversation topic on here in a last decade.

yeah idk why I replied to that. Guy with "badgers" in his name chiming in to laugh at the idea that Russ and Dak have had similar media narratives the first four years, very useful, much appreciated

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7 minutes ago, matt79511 said:

So not unless you're Mahomes, Wilson, or Jackson, basically

I think most people are looking at it too black or white. There is a grey area, well to me anyways.

There are QBs in this league, that I would be comfortable paying them almost anything they ask for (Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers a few years ago). They can win with less around them.

There are QBs that are in a tier below them but can still be franchise guys. QBs that you can win with, but need more help. Therefore if they need more, they should be paid less. Dak is in that category.

Dak is someone I would love to have as my QB now and in the future, just at the right price.

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Just now, matt79511 said:

yeah idk why I replied to that. Guy with "badgers" in his name chiming in to laugh at the idea that Russ and Dak have had similar media narratives the first four years, very useful, much appreciated

Here's a bunch of reasons that show Dak is a franchise QB

"Yeah but he doesn't win enough"

Actually, he's won a lot.

"I can't believe you are using wins as a QB stat"

It's useless.

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14 hours ago, The_Slamman said:

The Frederick money, cutting Crawford, and/or restructuring Lawrence and Martin would give us a ton of flexibility on this year's cap.  It would not be hard at all to give Griffen or Clowney a 1 year, 15M contract. 

 

14 hours ago, matt79511 said:

I’ve given up on this one. Read that he and Dak share and agent the other day, so that’s why we’ve been treading lightly. Wouldn’t touch Lawrence’s deal either, I think the plan there has always been to move on after ‘21

But yeah if we really want to win the bidding war on either of those guys it won’t be hard

Back on topic.

I agree with this. I really think adding a pass rusher makes a ton of sense at this point. Even if you feel really good about what RG and Aldon Smith will be this year, Add Clowney or Griffen and make the pass rush absolutely relentless.

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6 minutes ago, CAPJ said:

I think most people are looking at it too black or white. There is a grey area, well to me anyways.

There are QBs in this league, that I would be comfortable paying them almost anything they ask for (Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers a few years ago). They can win with less around them.

There are QBs that are in a tier below them but can still be franchise guys. QBs that you can win with, but need more help. Therefore if they need more, they should be paid less. Dak is in that category.

Dak is someone I would love to have as my QB now and in the future, just at the right price.

I agree with these notions in principle, but my counter is that simply having a "good" (back end/cusp of the Top 10) QB sets you apart from so many teams that it's actually worth the 15% of the cap going rate, and demigods like Mahomes are actually worth more than the going rate. It's paying 10% of the cap to guys like Lawrence and Cooper, no disrespect to those guys, where you see diminishing returns. Or 20-25% to your offensive line.

Paying a QB who was making fourth round pick money over $30M/yr makes it harder to win, there's no doubt about that. But that money has to go somewhere and you're not necessarily better off throwing it at three to four $7-10M/yr dudes or two $20M/yr dudes. We fixate so much on wins as a QB stat, yet overlook what that actually implies- no one's holding it against Calvin Johnson or Joe Thomas that they never won squat. QBs are really that much more valuable than any other position.

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