MVP’s you did not agree with

[DannyB]

2 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Those weren't trick plays. He literally lined up as a traditional TE in a heavy set and on one occasion beat the LB on a back shoulder throw along the sideline and kept his feet in bounds.  

 If it were that easy then all defensive lineman would be doing it. But suit yourself.

There's inherently some trickery there, because teams probably think he's there to block, or because he's not a traditional target in the passing game. He's not there simply because of his ball reception skills. That being said, the catch you're talking about, I remember. That was a thing of beauty for sure.

And believe me, I'm not trying to like...dump on his season, or downplay what he did. That was an insane season. But it's not going to beat a QB in his prime having a phenomenal season. Furthermore, I just can't get onboard a player getting the MVP when their team doesn't even make the postseason.

[rocky_rams]

7 hours ago, Forge said:

Also, I don't care what excuses there are, there should never be a kicker who is NFL MVP. Sorry Mark Moseley. 

What if he kicks 7 FGs and his team wins the SB 21-14?

[ET80]

23 minutes ago, DannyB said:

Furthermore, I just can't get onboard a player getting the MVP when their team doesn't even make the postseason.

C'mon now, this was a team that went 2-14 the year before, with a new HC and Ryan Fitzpatrick, Case Keenum, Ryan Mallet and Tom Savage at QB. A seven game swing is incredible, given those circumstances - and that QB rotation is probably the worst QB rotation ever seen in a single season, teams that went 0-16 had better QB situations than the Texans that year. 

Furthermore, this isn't "the best player on the best team" award, this is "Most Valuable Player". The Texans are on the clock for Jameis Winston or Marcus Mariota if Watt doesn't have the season he had, this team had lost 14 straight heading into the 2014 season - they were bad, and the guy who was picked #1 (Clowney) played a combined three quarters that season, so it's not like there was much from that rookie class.

I'm not taking away from Rodgers, I would have been perfectly fine with a co-MVP nod, but we'll see another season like what Rodgers did. Heck, we'll see better seasons from QBs over the years, if we haven't already.

What we saw from Watt - 20 sacks, 29 TFLs, 16 PDs, an 80 yard pick six, 4 FFs, 5 FRs, a FR TD, 3 TD receptions - we're NEVER going to see someone do that again, on either side of the ball. Aaron Donald isn't going to do that, Myles Garrett isn't going to do that, TJ Watt isn't going to do that, the Bosa brothers won't do that, Chase Young won't do that...

It was literally a once in a lifetime season. You can't just ignore that because the Texans got nothing worthy of a playoff spot from the QB position. It ultimately tells me we'll never see a defensive player win MVP.

[JAF-N72EX]

30 minutes ago, DannyB said:

There's inherently some trickery there, because teams probably think he's there to block, or because he's not a traditional target in the passing game. He's not there simply because of his ball reception skills. That being said, the catch you're talking about, I remember. That was a thing of beauty for sure.

And believe me, I'm not trying to like...dump on his season, or downplay what he did. That was an insane season. But it's not going to beat a QB in his prime having a phenomenal season. Furthermore, I just can't get onboard a player getting the MVP when their team doesn't even make the postseason.

Yeah and I understand all of that. QB's are almost always going to win the award.  I just don't agree with the process is all. 

An individual player award should not go to a player based on any team record or accolade. It should go to the player who had the best season of any player in league regardless of position or team status and IMO Watt was by far the better choice here.

Rodgers was great that year but Watt had a" never been seen before" type of season. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by JustAnotherFan

[JAF-N72EX]

10 minutes ago, ET80 said:

C'mon now, this was a team that went 2-14 the year before, with a new HC and Ryan Fitzpatrick, Case Keenum, Ryan Mallet and Tom Savage at QB. A seven game swing is incredible, given those circumstances - and that QB rotation is probably the worst QB rotation ever seen in a single season, teams that went 0-16 had better QB situations than the Texans that year. 

Furthermore, this isn't "the best player on the best team" award, this is "Most Valuable Player". The Texans are on the clock for Jameis Winston or Marcus Mariota if Watt doesn't have the season he had, this team had lost 14 straight heading into the 2014 season - they were bad, and the guy who was picked #1 (Clowney) played a combined three quarters that season, so it's not like there was much from that rookie class.

I'm not taking away from Rodgers, I would have been perfectly fine with a co-MVP nod, but we'll see another season like what Rodgers did. Heck, we'll see better seasons from QBs over the years, if we haven't already.

What we saw from Watt - 20 sacks, 29 TFLs, 16 PDs, an 80 yard pick six, 4 FFs, 5 FRs, a FR TD, 3 TD receptions - we're NEVER going to see someone do that again, on either side of the ball. Aaron Donald isn't going to do that, Myles Garrett isn't going to do that, TJ Watt isn't going to do that, the Bosa brothers won't do that, Chase Young won't do that...

It was literally a once in a lifetime season. You can't just ignore that because the Texans got nothing worthy of a playoff spot from the QB position. It ultimately tells me we'll never see a defensive player win MVP.

^^ Nevermind. ET worded it much better than I did. 

Seriously, Danny. Go back and watch the 2014 Watt and you will see for yourself. 

[ET80]

3 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

^^ Nevermind. ET worded it much better than I did. 

Seriously, Danny. Go back and watch the 2014 Watt and you will see for yourself. 

Nah, you said exactly what I said in a more efficient manner. Brevity is the soul of wit, or something...

[DannyB]

22 minutes ago, ET80 said:

C'mon now, this was a team that went 2-14 the year before, with a new HC and Ryan Fitzpatrick, Case Keenum, Ryan Mallet and Tom Savage at QB. A seven game swing is incredible, given those circumstances - and that QB rotation is probably the worst QB rotation ever seen in a single season, teams that went 0-16 had better QB situations than the Texans that year. 

The team record argument is tough, because like...you guys WEREN'T going 2-14 again, whether you had Watt or not. That's just the nature of the game, the league, and, well...life. The further on the fringes you are, the higher likelihood you regress toward the mean. Of course Watt played a part in that, but to insinuate that somehow Watt's play alone caused a 7 game improvement is ridiculous. Think about this: 2014 was also Arian Foster's -- a VERY good running back -- last good year. Two years later, no Arian Foster, and JJ Watt goes down 3 games in, and the team goes 7-6 the rest of the season, essentially the same. And that team had similar absolute bags of crap lining up under center. I'm not saying Watt doesn't have an effect, I'm not saying he doesn't make the team better, I just think the magnitude gets a tad overblown.

 

33 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Furthermore, this isn't "the best player on the best team" award, this is "Most Valuable Player".

No, I agree with that, but I think it's okay to have some sort of Mendoza line in that, if you're on team didn't even make it to the tournament, how valuable were you? I don't know if I will NEVER think a player from a non-playoff team could be MVP, but it would take some insane confluence of circumstances.

 

37 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Heck, we'll see better seasons from QBs over the years, if we haven't already.

We have, and they've rightfully won the award that year.

 

41 minutes ago, ET80 said:

What we saw from Watt - 20 sacks, 29 TFLs, 16 PDs, an 80 yard pick six, 4 FFs, 5 FRs, a FR TD, 3 TD receptions - we're NEVER going to see someone do that again

I disagree. I mean, those SPECIFIC numbers? No probably not, but something resembling it? I bet it'll happen. Maybe they don't get the offensive TDs or the pick 6, but that's mostly window dressing to me. But throw in a few more sacks, TFLs, and FFs? Sure. And i'll bet if it does happen, and that team doesn't make the postseason, there will be another player who had a season that I think is more deserving of MVP.

 

31 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

An individual player award should not go to a player based on any team record or accolade. It should go to the player who had the best season of any player in league regardless of position or team status and IMO Watt was by far the better choice here.

That's fine, but how far do you take that? Should a kicker get the award if they had a really good kicking season? What if the long snapper had the greatest long snapping season ever? Just...long snapped the ever-living hell out of the ball, every game, snapping it just long enough, but not too long. PERFECT long snaps, every time.

[DannyB]

28 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Brevity is the soul of wit, or something...

No, it's "levity is the soul of a Brit"

[JAF-N72EX]

6 minutes ago, DannyB said:

That's fine, but how far do you take that? Should a kicker get the award if they had a really good kicking season? What if the long snapper had the greatest long snapping season ever? Just...long snapped the ever-living hell out of the ball, every game, snapping it just long enough, but not too long. PERFECT long snaps, every time.

No, but I get your point here. 

Now, would you agree that despite there being 3 phases (offense, defense, and special teams) that offense and defense make up the majority of the game? 

I would think your answer would be "yes" and for that reason I would say that your hypothetical question here is not even close to the same level as Watt vs Rodgers.

That said though, if a Kicker had an unbelievable year that would put Janakowski(sp) to shame and was hitting game winners from 60 yards in every game on a regular basis then hell yeah I'm atleast putting him in that conversation. 

You know why? Because that player was doing something that has never been seen before. The same way that I seen Watt do things that was never seen before ina single season.

 

[JAF-N72EX]

12 minutes ago, DannyB said:

No, it's "levity is the soul of a Brit"

You gotta forgive ET, he's getting old.

[ET80]

19 minutes ago, DannyB said:

The team record argument is tough, because like...you guys WEREN'T going 2-14 again, whether you had Watt or not. That's just the nature of the game, the league, and, well...life. 

Tell that to teams like Cleveland, Tennessee, Jacksonville - teams that were perpetually picking top 5/10 in this timeframe. It's due to poor coaching and poor roster management...

(Need I remind you, this was the beginning of the Bill O'Brien era, so check and check on poor coaching and poor roster management...)

The Texans were absolutely heading down that path of ineptness, it's not like there's a history of winning with this franchise. 

18 minutes ago, DannyB said:

 

 

19 minutes ago, DannyB said:

Of course Watt played a part in that, but to insinuate that somehow Watt's play alone caused a 7 game improvement is ridiculous. Think about this: 2014 was also Arian Foster's -- a VERY good running back -- last good year. 

"Good" is subjective, as he was at 1,200/8 that year. Sure, those numbers look nice on paper, but a rushing juggernaut this was not.

19 minutes ago, DannyB said:

Two years later, no Arian Foster, and JJ Watt goes down 3 games in, and the team goes 7-6 the rest of the season, essentially the same. And that team had similar absolute bags of crap lining up under center. 

But by that time, Lamar Miller is reproducing those "Good" statlines that Foster wasn't producing anymore, and Jadevion Clowney was able to pick up some of the slack that Watt couldn't carry. 2014, these ancillary players really didn't exist.

19 minutes ago, DannyB said:

I'm not saying Watt doesn't have an effect, I'm not saying he doesn't make the team better, I just think the magnitude gets a tad overblown.

Specific to 2014, no. It wasn't. Maybe the allure of that season carried over, but 2014 was a one man show.

19 minutes ago, DannyB said:

No, I agree with that, but I think it's okay to have some sort of Mendoza line in that, if you're on team didn't even make it to the tournament, how valuable were you? I don't know if I will NEVER think a player from a non-playoff team could be MVP, but it would take some insane confluence of circumstances.

The Texans needed a Ravens loss to the Browns in Week 17 to make the playoffs, so it isn't as if they missed it outright - Watt carried them as far as he could, the Texans weren't mathematically eliminated until after the noon games were over that final week of the year. In essence, you're saying that Cleveland loss was the determining factor... Right? If Watt is in as a 6th seed, it's a different argument?

22 minutes ago, DannyB said:

I disagree. I mean, those SPECIFIC numbers? No probably not, but something resembling it? I bet it'll happen. Maybe they don't get the offensive TDs or the pick 6, but that's mostly window dressing to me. But throw in a few more sacks, TFLs, and FFs? Sure. And i'll bet if it does happen, and that team doesn't make the postseason, there will be another player who had a season that I think is more deserving of MVP.

Aaron Donald came close in 2018 - didn't quite hit the TFLs, FFs, FRs, but was a half sack ahead of Watt. The Rams were the #1 seed that year.

Donald didn't win the MVP, however. That year is more justifiable, because Pat Mahomes was hitting 5,000/50, which is the equivalent of a 20 sack/20 TFL season for a QB.

[ET80]

29 minutes ago, DannyB said:

No, it's "levity is the soul of a Brit"

Psh, Brits don't have souls.

[DannyB]

10 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Now, would you agree that despite there being 3 phases (offense, defense, and special teams) that offense and defense make up the majority of the game? 

Yes, precisely. But this line of thinking is why I'm going to put an ELITE QB season that results in a 12-4 record, division winning team that by most measures SHOULD have won the NFCCG and been in the Super Bowl, above a DL season on a team that didn't make the playoffs, even if it's one of the best DL seasons of all-time.

However, if it was going against Peyton Manning's 2008 season? I could see leaning Watt. So it's not impossible.

[animaltested]

2 hours ago, Elky said:

 

2005: Palmer > Alexander - Context is key here. Alexander was a product of Hutchinson/Jones; Palmer made Cincinnati relevant.

This argument is asinine. yes having great players around you helps. But you can hold that argument against every successful player in the NFL. The 2005 Seahawks offense was a perfect storm, like pretty much every MVP players offense. But the offense completely ran through Shaun. The passing was built off playaction, misdirection, and catching safeties cheating up. It’s no coincidence that one of Seattles worst performances was the divisional game against Washington when Shaun was knocked out early in the 1st quarter. Maurice Morris went for 49 yards on 18 carries behind Walt and Hutch. 

The whole “Walt and Hutch” made Shaun argument completely washes away how awesome of a football player he was. In 2002, Hutchinson missed pretty much the entire season, Shaun still put up 1600 total yards and 18 TDS.

Like, nobody but Seattle fans paid attention to the Seahawks pre 2005 yet people still somehow know exactly what type of player Shaun was his entire career. I’m sure people will bring up “but in 2006 blah blah blah”. Dude broke his foot in week three came back 9 weeks later and roasted Green Bay in the snow for 200 yards. Shaun was absolutely worn down due to high usage in the 2001 to 2005 stretch after entering the league as an older player. Fell off really quick since his open field speed was a key component to his success.

I don’t understand why NFL fans have had such a vendetta against Shaun. 

[DannyB]

7 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Tell that to teams like Cleveland, Tennessee, Jacksonville - teams that were perpetually picking top 5/10 in this timeframe. It's due to poor coaching and poor roster management...

First of all, Cleveland is one of the most fundamentally dysfunctional organizations on the entire planet. I'm not just talking about sports. So they're an exception to every possible rule no matter what. Even so, they've only gone 2-14 or worse two seasons in a row ONCE this century. It just doesn't really happen. I'm not saying the Texans would've gone .500 without Watt, but they probably would've won 4 or 5 games. That's just how it goes.

10 minutes ago, ET80 said:

But by that time, Lamar Miller is reproducing those "Good" statlines that Foster wasn't producing anymore

Ok we're a little in the weeds now, but Lamar Miller's '16 was NOT like Foster's '14. And I agree that '14 wasn't peak Foster. Lamar Miller's '16 was like a Xerox of Fosters, but like the 400th copy of it so the ink is mostly faded and you can just barely make it out. He had a season that any RB can have if they remain healthy for 14 or so games and get the majority of touches. Foster, in one LESS game, had better-and-not-close: rushing yards, ypc, receiving yards, ypr, rushing TDs, receiving TDs. Like, by any stretch, a discernibly better season. I'm not saying he was an offensive juggernaut in '14 that was carrying half the team. It was merely an example of a facet of the team that, by and large, worked fairly well in '14, worked less well in '16, and resulted in the same record. Yes, Clowney picked up slack, yes, as I said, they would have been better if Watt stayed healthy. It's just to point out that, GENERALLY, the only wild swings of team records that you can traceable to players, are due to QBs.

 

20 minutes ago, ET80 said:

If Watt is in as a 6th seed, it's a different argument?

Wouldn't hurt, but I don't think in this instance it would sway things for me. I get what you're saying though.