pwny Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 Just now, swoosh said: Talk about two trades on the complete opposite end of the spectrum - both of which from a value standpoint are seen by the majority in the league as a fleecing (Glen and mookie being the two getting fleeced in the opinion of the majority). That does absolutely nothing to prove Peters isn't a "difference maker". The half a point per game difference does, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swoosh Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 Just now, pwny said: The half a point per game difference does, though. Maybe I can put it to a way you'll understand - Peters was the best defensive player on a top 5 team (according to you) of ALL TIME. You can argue Mookie overpaid all you want, but that has nothing to do with Peters being a difference maker or not. Mahomes could be traded for 100 1st round picks. It'd be an overpay, but he's still a difference maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwny Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 1 minute ago, swoosh said: Maybe I can put it to a way you'll understand - Peters was the best defensive player on a top 5 team (according to you) of ALL TIME. You can argue Mookie overpaid all you want, but that has nothing to do with Peters being a difference maker or not. Mahomes could be traded for 100 1st round picks. It'd be an overpay, but he's still a difference maker. And Darius Slay was the best defender on not one but two different title winners, including the greatest in league history. But nobody was lining up to trade a bunch of picks for him. The greatest team of all time doesn't win a title if Marqise Lee didn't return two different kicks for TDs in the playoffs. I don't beat you in S18 if Marcel Dareus doesn't get a strip sack that knocked you out of FG range in what ended up being a 1 point win. That doesn't make those players difference makers. The point is, Mookie got a grand total on one half of a point better by adding not only Peters, but Deion Jones as well. A HALF point. I got a bigger bump from adding Johnathan Joseph and Christian Kirksey in S18. If two players combining for a half point increase is what we are drawing a hard line denoting this is absolutely difference making, then the league has 200+ difference makers, which makes it a completely meaningless phrase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwny Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 27 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said: We seem to be arguing completely different things. I don’t care about “overpaying” in a seasons draft that might not even happen, unless you have some insider informations you’d like to share? And I’ve already made it clear I’m not coming back if anyone but Nacho is simming the league. So sure we can agree I overpaid, it’s the “Peters and Jones aren’t difference makers” that I’m disagreeing with. I mean if your sole argument is "the defense on track for being the worst in sim history is going to get marginally better" and that's all that matters, then sure your team got marginally better. The point we've always been making is that for two firsts and two seconds, getting what turned out to be a half point per game better was never good value. Yeah, maybe you won't ever be back and those picks won't mean anything, but you could have gotten so much more value for those same picks. Instead of getting a half point better, you could have gotten two or even three points better. If this is the last offseason and the last chance you'll ever have to win a title, you should have tried to get more than a half point per game better rather than settling on the half point because "better is better." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swoosh Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, pwny said: And Darius Slay was the best defender on not one but two different title winners, including the greatest in league history. But nobody was lining up to trade a bunch of picks for him. The greatest team of all time doesn't win a title if Marqise Lee didn't return two different kicks for TDs in the playoffs. I don't beat you in S18 if Marcel Dareus doesn't get a strip sack that knocked you out of FG range in what ended up being a 1 point win. That doesn't make those players difference makers. The point is, Mookie got a grand total on one half of a point better by adding not only Peters, but Deion Jones as well. A HALF point. I got a bigger bump from adding Johnathan Joseph and Christian Kirksey in S18. If two players combining for a half point increase is what we are drawing a hard line denoting this is absolutely difference making, then the league has 200+ difference makers, which makes it a completely meaningless phrase. Well first off Darius Slay is absolutely a difference maker too. Agreed in Lee and Dareus not being difference makers due to making a few plays. Not sure where you're trying to go with that. If anything, Peters doesn't look great from a stats standpoint. And that's my whole point. It doesn't mean he's not a difference maker. We're talking about a simulation here, so of course there is RNG in play. Every time, I will choose to go with players who I think have a better chance of performing (i.e. who I believe who has a higher rating). Am I going to pick Jonathan Joseph over Marcus Peters because he had "better stats" one season? Absolutely not. Your arguments and actions (draft picks) say two different things. Edited September 17, 2020 by swoosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwny Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, swoosh said: Well first of Darius Slay is absolutely a difference maker too. Agreed in Lee and Dareus not being difference makers due to making a few plays. Not sure where you're trying to go with that. If anything, Peters doesn't look great from a stats standpoint. And that's my whole point. It doesn't mean he's not a difference maker. We're talking about a simulation here, so of course there is RNG in play. Every time, I will choose to go with players who I think have a better chance of performing (i.e. who I believe who has a higher rating). Am I going to pick Jonathan Joseph over Marcus Peters because he had "better stats" one season? Absolutely not. Your arguments and actions (draft picks) say two different things. If Peters' personal stats don't look great, and the difference it makes in a team's measurable success isn't great, what exactly makes him a difference maker? He doesn't produce stats and the team he's on barely gets better and that's a proven difference maker? Quote Your arguments and actions (draft picks) say two different things. Do they? Because I'm pretty sure I've never spent two firsts and two seconds on players that add a marginal difference to my splits. In fact, if you actually look at my actions, they quite clearly line up exactly with what I'm saying. Outside of the Brees trade, which we've already shown had a far larger impact, every midseason trade I've ever made has been trades of mid/late round picks for players like Christian Kirksey and Johnathan Joseph. I've always been a bargain hunter, and I've always argued for bargain hunting because they offer so much more value. And on top of that, I've never spent a first or second round pick on a off ball LB or a CB in the draft or otherwise, let alone two firsts and two seconds on a set of them. So no, my actions say exactly what I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwny Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 I can't believe there's an argument when the entire crux of the original argument was that the trade was going to make a marginal difference in the team's play, and now that it's been proven to be a marginal difference, people are back to arguing it was a good idea to spend those resources there and not somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swoosh Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 1 minute ago, pwny said: If Peters' personal stats don't look great, and the difference it makes in a team's measurable success isn't great, what exactly makes him a difference maker? He doesn't produce stats and the team he's on barely gets better and that's a proven difference maker? Do they? Because I'm pretty sure I've never spent two firsts and two seconds on players that add a marginal difference to my splits. In fact, if you actually look at my actions, they quite clearly line up exactly with what I'm saying. Outside of the Brees trade, which we've already shown had a far larger impact, every midseason trade I've ever made has been trades of mid/late round picks for players like Christian Kirksey and Johnathan Joseph. I've always been a bargain hunter, and I've always argued for bargain hunting because they offer so much more value. And on top of that, I've never spent a first or second round pick on a off ball LB or a CB in the draft or otherwise, let alone two firsts and two seconds on a set of them. So no, my actions say exactly what I'm saying. Ratings. I thought it was universally known that the individual stats provided for CBs is not the best indicator of a player's performance. How well a CB does at covering an opposing WR is simply not captured anywhere (well) in stats. Even if you go back and look at game logs, you couldn't come to an accurate conclusion because #1 CBs don't match-up against #1 WR's 100% of the time. Ratings are king in a sim. If Jonathan Joseph has more interceptions and coverages than Peters one year, I'm not going to pick him ahead of Peters. I'm going to pick the player (Peters) who I think is more highly rated. I feel you're still trying to argue more for it being poor value for Mookie. That's not my point. I'm simply arguing that Peters is a difference maker, which apparently to you is some impossible feat. Your stat for less than half-a-season isn't going to change my mind on that. The only way we'll truly prove whether he's a difference maker is to find out his rating in the sim. If Mahomes is rated 100 in the sim, but has a poor season, he'd still be a difference maker. That's an extreme example and one that isn't likely to occur at the QB position, but there are tons of examples at less premium positions of difference makers not performing well in the sim. From my own team, Grady Jarrett and Derwin James are both studs who historically haven't produced at the level their rating/talent likely indicates from a stats perspective. With that being said, if they ever hit the draft, they're going to go high in the draft. Players who had better individual stats are going to be picked behind them and you're in that mix. If I thought it would change your opinion, I would find countless examples of you drafting more talented players over players who performed better in the sim from an individual stats perspective. But we all know that's not the case. From day one, you thought Mookie overpaid (nobody is arguing that - not even Mookie) and then proceeded to say Peters wasn't a difference maker. Stats can tell any story you want. I saw Peters be a difference maker for me last season. His rating didn't just suddenly decrease after a great year in the NFL. He's still the same player. Being the second coming of Jesus and being a difference maker are two different things, you know. There are tons of difference makers in this league. I don't know why you're showing so much resistance in acknowledging Peters is a difference maker. Teams can still overpay for difference makers. They're two separate issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swoosh Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, pwny said: I can't believe there's an argument when the entire crux of the original argument was that Peters isn't a difference maker when he proved last season that he is in fact a...difference maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Ramster Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 2 hours ago, pwny said: If we actually do math here, your point differential per game went from 1.56 per game to 5. A nice increase of 3.44 per game. Pretty good jump ahead. Guess it's settled. It was a great trade. Except..... In the first nine games of the season, you faced teams who had an average margin of victory of 1.04. In the back half, you faced teams who had a -1.83 average margin of victory, which is a difference of 2.87. Which means, vs the average, your team got .57 points per game better. Barely a half a point per game. Such an incredible set of difference makers those two were, and a half point per game is totally worth two firsts and two seconds. Could you do the math and breakdown for me after the Aj green trade? I felt my defense slipped but my offense took off. Please and thanks if you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Ramster Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 (edited) 37 minutes ago, pwny said: I can't believe there's an argument when the entire crux of the original argument was that the trade was going to make a marginal difference in the team's play, and now that it's been proven to be a marginal difference, people are back to arguing it was a good idea to spend those resources there and not somewhere else. I think it’s because you’re bringing data. While Mookie is bringing the eye test.. Both can be right. As long as there is no “buyers remorse” the trade works out. He did over pay a ish load. But if he wins the Chip it’ll be an after thought. Its also hard not to look at data and be stubborn. After all this is a sim with RNG. There’s no heart, desire or pedigree to determine a players worth. And that’s where you’re stuck. You’re in the mind frame that it made his team worse.. But mookie feels the trade took him over the top. Edited September 17, 2020 by El Ramster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 3 hours ago, pwny said: I mean if your sole argument is "the defense on track for being the worst in sim history is going to get marginally better" and that's all that matters, then sure your team got marginally better. The point we've always been making is that for two firsts and two seconds, getting what turned out to be a half point per game better was never good value. Yeah, maybe you won't ever be back and those picks won't mean anything, but you could have gotten so much more value for those same picks. Instead of getting a half point better, you could have gotten two or even three points better. If this is the last offseason and the last chance you'll ever have to win a title, you should have tried to get more than a half point per game better rather than settling on the half point because "better is better." Its weird because I posted about needing a CB and reached out to multiple people and yet...Nobody wanted draft picks. Strange. Almost as if...No one but Swoosh was taking future picks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 Its a dumb argument to begin with. Pwnys BS you could've gotten more, is just that. NOBODY but Swoosh was valuing future draft picks at all. I reached out to almost every owner with a losing record and a decent CB. I paid what I had to pay. Draft capital in a season that might never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwny Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 1 minute ago, MookieMonstah said: Its weird because I posted about needing a CB and reached out to multiple people and yet...Nobody wanted draft picks. Strange. Almost as if...No one but Swoosh was taking future picks... Weird how two CBs were traded for future picks immediately after your trade, but nobody was taking future picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 1 minute ago, pwny said: Weird how two CBs were traded for future picks immediately after your trade, but nobody was taking future picks. And I posted asking about CBs and reached out to losing teams...Don't know what to tell you lol. Idgaf about imaginary draft picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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