Are Payton's actions a tell tale sign of quarterback competition?

[whodatworm23]

Since the end of the 2020 season the Saints and Sean Payton put the full court press on unrestricted free agent quarterback Jameis Winston and because of that its basically been assumed in the media and even throughout the fan base that Winston will be the starter in 2021.

 

Maybe he will… but that’s not set in stone.

 

For years now, reports have been coming out of New Orleans by many well respected individuals with close ties to the franchise and coaching staff that Sean Payton has been enamored with the idea of building an offense around a quarterback with an athletic skill set in the post Drew Brees era. The reports were that Payton was in the group that felt the NFL game was changing and that you need a quarterback who can create and make plays off script due to the increasing athleticism of defensive lineman along with the fact that the college game produces few NFL ready offensive lineman than in years past. It was this line of thinking that had Payton so enamored with the potential of Taysom Hill, to the point Payton spent 3 years developing Hill and going as far as telling people in the NFL that Hill was possibly the next Steve Young and eventual successor to Drew Brees.

 

So the question isn’t “what has Hill done in 2020 that made Payton reconsider his assessment of Hill" but more so “what did Winston do in 2020 that has made Payton reconsider how he views the quarterback position moving forward”?

 

Did Payton actively pursue Winston in free agency… sure, of course he did but it wasn’t like he signed him to a contract that entrenches him as the teams franchise quarterback moving forward. In fact Winston once again signed what amounts to a flier deal that simply gives him an opportunity to compete for the starting job, that’s all that’s guaranteed to Jamies Winston. One can even argue that Winston’s current deal is one of a valuable insurance policy as a backup.

 

What I’m getting at is despite what we feel about Taysom Hill as a quarterback, the fact is that this will be an open competition for the starting job and if any of the two prospects has an inside track for the gig its actually Taysom Hill. Hill is the one that’s been in the system for 3 years, Hill is the one Payton has made his pet project, Hill is the one who adopted Drew Brees regiment, Hill is the one who started in Drew Brees absence and went 3-1. Is Hill the prototypical quarterback, no he’s not but what he is, is the type of athlete Sean Payton has been rumored to covet at the quarterback position.

 

Then there is the selection of Notre Dame's Ian Book in the 4^th round of the 2021 NFL draft. This selection was telling in many ways but also Sean Payton’s comments on the vision the team has for Book is a glimpse of how Sean Payton views the position of quarterback moving forward. First Payton made clear that Book will remain at quarterback with the Saints and despite being very athletic he does not view Book as being the type of athlete to run the packages Taysom Hill does as both have different physical make up. Translation… Book is a quarterback and athletically he can do a lot of things Hill can do put physically we can’t run him like we do Taysom on a consistent basis. Next Payton spoke of the intangibles Book possesses which the organization values. Then Payton spoke of Books ability to be accurate with his passes and deliver the ball in a timing offense. Payton followed that by speaking on Books athleticism, foot quickness, scrambling ability and his knack of extending drives with his feet and being able to create plays off script and make throws from a variety of angles. Lastly, and here’s where Payton really perked up. He spoke of Books toughness, competitiveness and his ability to lead his team to wins.

 

Does this sound like a head coach willing to invest the future of his franchise, an offensive mind willing to build his next offense around a statue quarterback with bad decision making? Or does it sound like a coach that most close to the organization have been telling you wants to move forward with a mobile athlete at quarterback?

 

Now Ian Book isn’t ready to enter the quarterback competition just yet. But on the huff… who’s the odd fit at quarterback of the 3? If Hill wins the job over Winston , the offense will be built around Hills skill set. Book (whom the Saints just invested a 4^th round pick in) has the skill set to operate that offense. If Winston is the quarterback, Hill returns to his Joker role on offense and then the drafting of Ian Book is really brought into question as there were other quarterbacks available that were more logical fits to develop behind Winston.

 

Its my belief that while the entire world is speaking matter of fact in regards to Jamies Winston being the Saints 2021 starter, I believe that its actually Taysom Hill that has the inside track to be the Saints starter next season with Ian Book being groomed behind him in the #3 spot with Winston serving as a valuable backup in the event of injury for a playoff caliber roster. I realize I will be in the minority on this but the Saints will be in the quarterback market from here on out and Payton will eventually land (if he hasn’t already) that athletic signal caller to lead his offense into the future that he covets and I have a really hard time believing that, that guy is Jamies Winston with all of the actions and comments Payton has said and taken thus far.

 

Thoughts…

[tyler735]

Given the recent reports about the Saints interest in Mac Jones and exploring trading up for him, I don't think Sean Payton is against the idea of a "statue" type QB going forward. That almost guaranteed wasn't just smoke either as the Saints apparently had a great meeting with him at the Senior Bowl, and also had Payton in attendance at his Pro Day. I'll be very surprised if Winston isn't the opening day starter. While I'm not saying Payton is against the idea of an athletic QB, it sure spoke volumes when the Saints had maybe the most freakish athletic QB to ever play the game in their lap in 2018 with Lamar Jackson and decided not to pull the trigger.

Payton got to see Hill in the offense. He's also been practicing for years in the system as well. The actual QB play when he got his turn left a lot to be desired last year. Hill pretty much single handedly killed Kamara's hopes of being bring a legit contender for OPOY last year when he struggled to execute even a simple screen pass for weeks. So many bad fumbles, took forever to get through his reads, no awareness in the pocket. Doubt Payton is really considering him too much this season.

I'm trying my hardest to like Book as a prospect, but I just don't see it. Seems he's most likely a Colt McCoy, Gardner Minshew, Case Keenum, etc. level QB in the NFL with his arm limitations. His deep ball game is nearly non-existent because of it. I was only able to find 1 throw that traveled 50+ yards in his entire college career. Most of his longer throws 30+ yards seem to hang quite a bit. I get that a guy like Brees didn't have a great arm in terms of strength, but I think it was better than Books and Brees also had elite accuracy/ball placement. Book does not. The QB School on YouTube did a good video on Book. Really highlights some of his flaws. Way more missed reads and hesitation to pull the trigger when his guy is open then there should be with Book.

[whodatworm23]

1 hour ago, tyler735 said:

Given the recent reports about the Saints interest in Mac Jones and exploring trading up for him, I don't think Sean Payton is against the idea of a "statue" type QB going forward. That almost guaranteed wasn't just smoke either as the Saints apparently had a great meeting with him at the Senior Bowl, and also had Payton in attendance at his Pro Day. I'll be very surprised if Winston isn't the opening day starter. While I'm not saying Payton is against the idea of an athletic QB, it sure spoke volumes when the Saints had maybe the most freakish athletic QB to ever play the game in their lap in 2018 with Lamar Jackson and decided not to pull the trigger.

Payton got to see Hill in the offense. He's also been practicing for years in the system as well. The actual QB play when he got his turn left a lot to be desired last year. Hill pretty much single handedly killed Kamara's hopes of being bring a legit contender for OPOY last year when he struggled to execute even a simple screen pass for weeks. So many bad fumbles, took forever to get through his reads, no awareness in the pocket. Doubt Payton is really considering him too much this season.

I'm trying my hardest to like Book as a prospect, but I just don't see it. Seems he's most likely a Colt McCoy, Gardner Minshew, Case Keenum, etc. level QB in the NFL with his arm limitations. His deep ball game is nearly non-existent because of it. I was only able to find 1 throw that traveled 50+ yards in his entire college career. Most of his longer throws 30+ yards seem to hang quite a bit. I get that a guy like Brees didn't have a great arm in terms of strength, but I think it was better than Books and Brees also had elite accuracy/ball placement. Book does not. The QB School on YouTube did a good video on Book. Really highlights some of his flaws. Way more missed reads and hesitation to pull the trigger when his guy is open then there should be with Book.

Kinda loaded on this but here it goes...

 

The Mac Jones thing... I'm not buying, mostly from the source its coming from. Now I don't doubt the Saints remained active to trade up but I do not believe it was for Jones. That may have been what was said but I don't believe it was their intention. They tried to get at 7 and 9 for Horn or Surtain but the Lions balked when Sewell fell then the Saints top target (Horn) went to Carolina at 8. They had a deal with Denver but balked at the asking price of 3 1st, 2 3rd's and a 4th. 

 

After that the next likely target was the two offensive lineman Rashawn Slater and Alijah-Vera Tucker. That may sound crazy but the Saints hord quality offensive lineman and value depth. They also will likely move off of Peat's deal ASAP. This approach has served them well and no doubt Slater was in the Saints top 10 on their board. I could be wrong but I'm not buying the Mac Jones interest because if you think he's the guy you make the deal on a quarterback and that deal could have been made at 9. Now maybe they were putting Jones name out there but really coveted Fields, that would make more sense but all 3 (Fields, Slater and Tucker) were off the board by pick 14. I'm not buying the quarterbacks because if you have a conviction on a quarterback, you make the deal at 9. 

 

The Lamar Jackson thing... not taking Jackson does not mean Payton doesn't want to build an offense around an athletic quarterback. 1. There's more than just athleticism Payton is going to look for, there are other traits he'll want. 2. They were still in the midst of the "all in " approach in Brees final years and felt they were a player away form a superbowl berth so you have to take that into context. 3. Remember, at the time Jackson was drafted he fell to 32 for a reason. Most saw a athletic quarterback with a ton of issues as far as a passer, for the Saints they had to ask themselves "why spend a 1st round pick on a player when we have a similar guy in Hill already on the roster"?

 

The book on Ian Book... limited arm talent, average at best but accurate and excels in a rhythm offense. Books issues are mechanical and can be fixed but he'll need development. His floor is a solid backup with a ceiling of an above average starter. Hes really athletic man... not a freak like Hill but savy, extremely mobile and makes plays off script to extend plays. Hes a winner and a leader but most of all, the thing thats most telling is that he's tailor made to be a backup to an offense built around the skill set of Taysom Hill. Book can't give you the power game Hill does (only Cam Newton can) but Book can absolutely be plugged into a Taysom Hill offense and do many of the things Hill can do and lead that offense.

 

Remember, when the Saints selected Book in the 4th round their were many quality football players still on the board knowing their next pick wasn't until late 6th. Still they valued Book that much, why? Its not because they view him as a potential backup to Jamies Winston. Its because they view him as a potential backup to the guy they know will be their starting quarterback next season. Winston appears to be the "break glass in case if emergency quarterback". 

 

Look at their draft... if Winston is the guy, wouldn't you build around his strengths? Would you not surround him with dynamic receiver in a class deep with them to take advantage of Winston's arm talent? No, they focused on beefing up their defense. Then when they did take an offensive player let's look at who they took...

 

Ian Book: a quarterback that's ideally suited to back up Hill in an offense built around athleticism at the quarterback position.

 

Landon Young: a massive road grading run blocker whi can play 4 positions along the offensive line. Beef up the running game and add more depth up front.

 

Kawann Baker: explosive athlete, regarded as one of the top special team gunners in the draft. Yes we lost Justin Hardee to the Jets but guess who else were losing at the position... Taysom Hill. Hes already said he's off the ST units and is focusing solely on quarterback this year. 

 

Sorry... actions speak louder than words and to me I don't care what Payton says publicly, his actions don't tell me he's operating with the intention of building around Winston's abilities but more so that of Hill's.

 

Like I said... I could be WAY off base here and I know everyone has already anointed Winston the starter especially the media but Paytons ego is MASSIVE and theirs NOTHING he'd like to do more than to prove to the world just how smart he is.

[whodatworm23]

I'll go ahead and say it right now... if Jamies Winston is the starting quarterback of the Saints moving forward, the Saints front office just took the 133rd pick and threw it in the trash. 

 

If there planning on building an offense around Taysom Hill then the 133rd pick was spent wisely on a quarterback who provides solid depth at the most important position and fits what they do on offense..

 

which do you think the Saints brass did?

[Dome]

Why do you believe the 133rd pick would be trash if Winston is the starter?

Taysom was a good enough backup even though he was nothing like Brees.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Dome

[Dome]

Payton was asked specifically about a Taysom and Book comparison. Coach doesn’t see it. Like you pointed out.

“I can't say that. It's in fairness to Ian (Book) it's hard to say that, you know, because to appreciate Taysom is really to be here and he's a 238-pound player that does things that are unique. So I think that would be a hard jump or leap, if you will. In fact, I know it would be. So that wasn't the vision when we selected the player. We saw someone who was accurate, who threw the ball on time, who led his team to a lot of wins. He's been successful. We saw someone who was very competitive and so those were some important things that we valued. But it wasn't the vision that maybe what has become some of the things that Taysom does."

 

Ian Book is a good athlete. Taysom is a great athlete. Taysom is explosive and powerful. Ian Book is wiggly and shifty, it’s totally different running styles. Taysom wouldn’t be as effective as a runner if he wasn’t 238lbs and hit like a Mack Truck, and that’s just not Books game. Even as passers they’re different, Book is more or a rhythm and touch passer, Taysom is a drop back and rip it gun slinger. 
 

So other than the fact that they rely on their feet for yardage more often than you’d expect from your QB, I don’t see many similarities? I guess I just don’t see how it points to Taysom having an inside track to starting.

Looking at combine numbers, Book isn’t much more similar to Taysom as he is to Brees. 

As far as the argument that Taysom already showed he can go 3-1 as our starter, Teddy went 5-0 for us and look at him now.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Dome

[whodatworm23]

3 hours ago, Dome said:

Payton was asked specifically about a Taysom and Book comparison. Coach doesn’t see it. Like you pointed out.

“I can't say that. It's in fairness to Ian (Book) it's hard to say that, you know, because to appreciate Taysom is really to be here and he's a 238-pound player that does things that are unique. So I think that would be a hard jump or leap, if you will. In fact, I know it would be. So that wasn't the vision when we selected the player. We saw someone who was accurate, who threw the ball on time, who led his team to a lot of wins. He's been successful. We saw someone who was very competitive and so those were some important things that we valued. But it wasn't the vision that maybe what has become some of the things that Taysom does."

 

Ian Book is a good athlete. Taysom is a great athlete. Taysom is explosive and powerful. Ian Book is wiggly and shifty, it’s totally different running styles. Taysom wouldn’t be as effective as a runner if he wasn’t 238lbs and hit like a Mack Truck, and that’s just not Books game. Even as passers they’re different, Book is more or a rhythm and touch passer, Taysom is a drop back and rip it gun slinger. 
 

So other than the fact that they rely on their feet for yardage more often than you’d expect from your QB, I don’t see many similarities? I guess I just don’t see how it points to Taysom having an inside track to starting.

Looking at combine numbers, Book isn’t much more similar to Taysom as he is to Brees. 

As far as the argument that Taysom already showed he can go 3-1 as our starter, Teddy went 5-0 for us and look at him now.

 

 

Both Hill and Book are great athletes at the quarterback position. Watch Books feet and excapability on tape, he's got alot of similarities to Hill when the pocket breaks down and he's forced to go off script. The difference comes in the physicality of Taysom and the Shiftyness of Book but both get the job done in a similar fashion. 

 

As I said, I know I'll be in the minority on this one but Payton always seems to leave little tells that let you know what he's thinking. Hes a terrible poker player, and its my belief that Hill will be the starter unless he completely falls off a cliff in training camp. I think Winston is a valuable backup but I feel Payton is gonna shoot his shot at this new offense in the first 6-8 weeks of the season and if it works out then he'll move forward and if not he'll insert Winston but if he's ever gonna have the clout and free reign to do it and get away with it if it doesn't work its this coming year.

 

I'm likely wrong... but I just have this sneaky suspicion that I'm not.

[MookieMonstah]

Ian Book seems like the perfect...back up QB. Winner, leader, smart QB. He will help in the QB room and is good enough to play if a starter goes down. I think the Saints saw Book as an ideal back up who they can groom.

[Raves]

44 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

Ian Book seems like the perfect...back up QB. Winner, leader, smart QB. He will help in the QB room and is good enough to play if a starter goes down. I think the Saints saw Book as an ideal back up who they can groom.

Pretty much this.  He's a guy you can expect to have a long career as a back-up and with extreme luck he might be able to be a Ryan Fitzpatrick-type stopgap.  Honestly I think having a reliable 10 year back-up is just as important as a player at the end of a positional group.  I mean if he was taken over a player that could be expected to immediately get a good amount of playing time, then sure that might be an issue, but teams have had their entire seasons derailed due to a lack of a viable back-up QB for a 3-4 game stretch that took them out of playoff contentions.  The Saints have been exceptionally lucky that they've had Teddy B and Winston/Hill the past few years.

Not just the Saints though, let's also remember the Eagles won a Super Bowl because they had a high caliber back-up.

[Mid Iowa]

It seems to me that we're forgetting that Book played/started for 3 years for a team that was pressing to be in the playoff race during that stretch.

Sure, the Irish had their fair share of draft picks, but not a ton. Notably their o-line was really stout and 2 tackles and a guard got drafted. I say this because so many teams have high draft picks surrounding a "marquee" player. Not so much with this pick/team. It's not like Alabama or Ohio State where a huge amount of their players get drafted, so everybody looks great by default.

But look at Book's numbers. The past 2 season he's 49-9 TD to INT ratio. Those are not slouch numbers, and certainly considering the competition.

I don't agree with the notion of Book being a career backup. This isn't Chase Daniel we're talking about. This kid played against some of the better teams in college as a starter for 3 years and has one heck of a track record to show for it, unlike some of the other top picks over the last several years who've had 1 or maybe 2 good/great years.

Winston is likely going to get the nod going into 2021 with Taysom playing the gadget QB. Book will be the insurance policy while he learns, and 2022 will be the tell tail, and will be the shape of our backfield for years to come.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Mid Iowa

[Dome]

20 minutes ago, Mid Iowa said:

It seems to me that we're forgetting that Book played/started for 3 years for a team that was pressing to be in the playoff race during that stretch.

Sure, the Irish had their fair share of draft picks, but not a ton. Notably their o-line was really stout and 2 tackles and a guard got drafted. I say this because so many teams have high draft picks surrounding a "marquee" player. Not so much with this pick/team. It's not like Alabama or Ohio State where a huge amount of their players get drafted, so everybody looks great by default.

But look at Book's numbers. The past 2 season he's 49-9 TD to INT ratio. Those are not slouch numbers, and certainly considering the competition.

I don't agree with the notion of Book being a career backup. This isn't Chase Daniel we're talking about. This kid played against some of the better teams in college as a starter for 3 years and has one heck of a track record to show for it, unlike some of the other top picks over the last several years who've had 1 or maybe 2 good/great years.

Winston is likely going to get the nod going into 2021 with Taysom playing the gadget QB. Book will be the insurance policy while he learns, and 2022 will be the tell tail, and will be the shape of our backfield for years to come.

Oh I’m not doubting Book more than I’d doubt any other QB that wasn’t worth an early pick, they’re all gonna have issues and it’s a crap shoot. I actually really like his skill set in this offense. 

I just don’t necessarily think his selection indicates any type of bigger picture in terms of what Payton wants at the position. If a big monolithic QB with a cannon arm and good head on his shoulders that Payton liked fell, I would expect him to select that QB as well. Then I wonder if the storyline would be that Jameis has an inside track to be starter, because of the developmental QB we snagged that’s similar to his skill set. 

My comments here aren’t about Book, I don’t mind him as a flier QB and think the Colt McCoy/Minshew comparison is apt from a skill set standpoint. When I watch Book and Taysom side by side I just don’t see the similarities other people do.

[Dome]

And watching Book bouncing on his tip-toes to see over his line looks more like Brees than any other QB we’ve had on the roster 😂 

Brees on his tip-toes to see over his line: “Wow, look at Brees adapt. He doesn’t have the size most QBs do so he gets up on his toes to see the field.”

Book on his tip-toes to see over his line: “Wow bad footwork, look at him on his toes.”

Edited May 5, 2021 by Dome

[Mid Iowa]

On 5/5/2021 at 11:13 AM, Dome said:

Oh I’m not doubting Book more than I’d doubt any other QB that wasn’t worth an early pick, they’re all gonna have issues and it’s a crap shoot. I actually really like his skill set in this offense. 

I just don’t necessarily think his selection indicates any type of bigger picture in terms of what Payton wants at the position. If a big monolithic QB with a cannon arm and good head on his shoulders that Payton liked fell, I would expect him to select that QB as well. Then I wonder if the storyline would be that Jameis has an inside track to be starter, because of the developmental QB we snagged that’s similar to his skill set. 

My comments here aren’t about Book, I don’t mind him as a flier QB and think the Colt McCoy/Minshew comparison is apt from a skill set standpoint. When I watch Book and Taysom side by side I just don’t see the similarities other people do.

I totally agree.

I was referring more to what Mookie and Raves were discussing about him being a 10 year backup. I just don't see that happening.

To the main topic, though, I always want us to have a QB competition. I don't care if we've got Brees or Brady on the roster, I want somebody pushing them for their job (in a good way, of course).

[Raves]

1 hour ago, Mid Iowa said:

I totally agree.

I was referring more to what Mookie and Raves were discussing about him being a 10 year backup. I just don't see that happening.

To the main topic, though, I always want us to have a QB competition. I don't care if we've got Brees or Brady on the roster, I want somebody pushing them for their job (in a good way, of course).

I was putting Books floor as a 10 year back-up which is a good NFL career if you think about how many player flame out and that only 64 QBs total are really ever on rosters at any time in the NFL.  He can obviously be better but at a minimum having a high caliber career back-up is also needed.

[whodatworm23]

6 minutes ago, Raves said:

I was putting Books floor as a 10 year back-up which is a good NFL career if you think about how many player flame out and that only 64 QBs total are really ever on rosters at any time in the NFL.  He can obviously be better but at a minimum having a high caliber career back-up is also needed.

This is what I've been saying... Books floor is a solid career backup with multiple wins as a starter in spot duty. Thats the floor, so if Book excels his ceiling is an above average starter. My scouting report on Book was very similar to that of Dak Prescott coming out of Mississippi State. Physical they were different but once I got past that those two prospects were very similar from a scouting perspective. Need to remember what was being said about Prescott when he was drafted. 

 

Book has a shot here... let's see.