Will Jimmy Graham Be Released?

[JAF-N72EX]

12 hours ago, Sugashane said:

I keep seeing one goal line play from like the 5 in my head.

 

ARob and Mooney on the outside, Mooney goes in motion and runs a drag

Kmet and Graham are up in the slot, both threatening the corners on fade routes while the outside guys work in.

Fields has the arm and accuracy to make something happen.

What are you trying to say suga?  That we finally have a QB who is capable of making these type of throws and reads to Kmet....

 

 

17 hours ago, dll2000 said:

This kind of goes to Belichick's point about using a players skills to your advantage and minimizing what he does poorly.   

Coaches need to think outside the box more.

For example a play is drawn up to have Y TE block and Graham is at Y TE for that play.

Maybe it is better to sometimes have Graham run a route a take a defender with him rather than attempting to block same defender.   The defender fears his pass catching ability and Graham's blocking is relatively poor.

Even good blockers only usually hold a block for 3 seconds or so.   Maybe the extra space created by backing defender off following Graham downfield is worth more than the block.

When I designed plays I would do this a lot.  I would sometimes run guys off with WRs rather than block them.  If a defender cheated or stopped respecting it I made a note and threw over their heads.

 

Agreed with both. Part of building a game plan surrounded by the scheme is using your available resources the right way in order to distract the defense and making them think you're doing one thing and then doing the opposite. Even if it means using your best threat as a diversion in certain situations as bait to draw attention away from the actual intended target(s) to free them up (i.e likely 3rd down target (Robinson), red zone target (Graham), etc).

This kinda links to Suga's envisioned play above.  If Kmet and Graham both become adequate TEs at both Y or U positions (which I think they can) then that amount of flexibility can expand Nagy's playbook and it gives him and the QB more options to work with. Because then you're not just working with one TE who is known to be a Y in the redzone and the other for being a U in 12 and 13 formations--which tips the defense. Instead, both are interchangeable options who can be a threat at any time and this keeps defenses on its toes. Especially when they still have to worry about Arob and Mooney.

 

 

[AZBearsFan]

6 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

What are you trying to say suga?  That we finally have a QB who is capable of making these type of throws and reads to Kmet....

 

 

Agreed with both. Part of building a game plan surrounded by the scheme is using your available resources the right way in order to distract the defense and making them think you're doing one thing and then doing the opposite. Even if it means using your best threat as a diversion in certain situations as bait to draw attention away from the actual intended target(s) to free them up (i.e likely 3rd down target (Robinson), red zone target (Graham), etc).

This kinda links to Suga's envisioned play above.  If Kmet and Graham both become adequate TEs at both Y or U positions (which I think they can) then that amount of flexibility can expand Nagy's playbook and it gives him and the QB more options to work with. Because then you're not just working with one TE who is known to be a Y in the redzone and the other for being a U in 12 and 13 formations--which tips the defense. Instead, both are interchangeable options who can be a threat at any time and this keeps defenses on its toes. Especially when they still have to worry about Arob and Mooney.

These are the plays (along with the MANY deep misses to Mooney and Miller the past few years) that have me confident even if he was to have to start out with the pared down Mitch-like playbook from jump that Fields could run that version of Nagy’s (and Lazor’s) offense at least as well as Mitch did right out of the gate, with at least some of those plays CONSTANTLY missed being made. To me, the biggest reason that version of our offense struggled against quality opponents is because the chunk plays that were there that would have changed everything from a game flow standpoint were just basically never made with Mitch. Where he failed Fields should succeed, and that would mean everything IMO. 

[dll2000]

2 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

These are the plays (along with the MANY deep misses to Mooney and Miller the past few years) that have me confident even if he was to have to start out with the pared down Mitch-like playbook from jump that Fields could run that version of Nagy’s (and Lazor’s) offense at least as well as Mitch did right out of the gate, with at least some of those plays CONSTANTLY missed being made. To me, the biggest reason that version of our offense struggled against quality opponents is because the chunk plays that were there that would have changed everything from a game flow standpoint were just basically never made with Mitch. Where he failed Fields should succeed, and that would mean everything IMO. 

100%

Momentum in football is incredibly underrated.   As is fear of the big play or lack thereof.  

One of those intangibles that doesn't show up in a stat line but means so, so much.

Why Jimmy Johnson when asked what he looked for in a player he said, "momentum changers."

 

 

 

 

 

[soulman]

FWIW I posted an analysis by Jonathan Wood last summer which analyzed the Bears "big plays" in the passing game and as expected they were truly lacking that element in their offense.  Not much of what we saw last season changed that situation either.  Mitch is not accurate when he throws deep and I suspect after 4 years that as much as anything signaled his being let go.

Conversely Fields is seen as being a very accurate deep ball passer which give us all something to look forward too.  How many times over the past decade has Rodgers burned us with "big play" TDs that taken away would have swung the momentum in an entirely different direction?  He and Jordy Nelson used to kill us with those.  Be nice to finally be on the receiving end of those "gifts".

[WindyCity]

2022 Cap Room: 39 million

2021 Draft Picks: -10 million

2021 Roll Over: +5 million

Release: +10 million

Foles [3]

Quinn [6.7]

 

2022 Cap Space: 44 million

 

But with Robinson, Nichols, Daniels and many more as free agents the number is a little deceiving. Any cash we could save on Graham, even with  restructure would be a big help

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

On 5/26/2021 at 2:47 AM, JAF-N72EX said:

What are you trying to say suga?  That we finally have a QB who is capable of making these type of throws and reads to Kmet....

 

 

Agreed with both. Part of building a game plan surrounded by the scheme is using your available resources the right way in order to distract the defense and making them think you're doing one thing and then doing the opposite. Even if it means using your best threat as a diversion in certain situations as bait to draw attention away from the actual intended target(s) to free them up (i.e likely 3rd down target (Robinson), red zone target (Graham), etc).

This kinda links to Suga's envisioned play above.  If Kmet and Graham both become adequate TEs at both Y or U positions (which I think they can) then that amount of flexibility can expand Nagy's playbook and it gives him and the QB more options to work with. Because then you're not just working with one TE who is known to be a Y in the redzone and the other for being a U in 12 and 13 formations--which tips the defense. Instead, both are interchangeable options who can be a threat at any time and this keeps defenses on its toes. Especially when they still have to worry about Arob and Mooney.

 

 

Tried to be realistic about Mitch the whole way, and don't like crapping on players when they leave town, but man are those brutal. I swear I can hear the thump of my hand smacking the couch after watching those.  "Kids lets go outside for a while, this isn't going anywhere"

[AZBearsFan]

6 hours ago, RunningVaccs said:

Tried to be realistic about Mitch the whole way, and don't like crapping on players when they leave town, but man are those brutal. I swear I can hear the thump of my hand smacking the couch after watching those.  "Kids lets go outside for a while, this isn't going anywhere"

I could never bring myself to actually stop watching, but man, there was so much apathy that had set in by the end of the Mitch era. It was a rough place to be in as a fan to watch games expecting that opportunities for game changing plays were going to be continually missed. 

[soulman]

19 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

I could never bring myself to actually stop watching, but man, there was so much apathy that had set in by the end of the Mitch era. It was a rough place to be in as a fan to watch games expecting that opportunities for game changing plays were going to be continually missed. 

I guess I became the flip side of you.  Apathy is what stopped me from bothering to watch any longer.  It was like watching a battle of wits between Nagy and Trubisky.  Mitch simply couldn't play Nagy's way and Nagy was too stubborn to make his scheme bend more to Mitch's skill set. 

Even after Lazor took over play calling and showed him how it could work Nagy took back the headset and call sheet and that ended that. It was the clearest sign I saw that Mitch would not be back but Nagy would.  But now the time clock on Nagy's reign as Bears HC is ticking very loudly.

Even as early as this season and with or without Fields he needs to prove that his offensive schemes can hang more points on the board and win games or he will either be fired or enter 2022 as a lame duck HC without a contract extension.  He has to stop going in reverse and show some progress.

[dll2000]

53 minutes ago, soulman said:

I guess I became the flip side of you.  Apathy is what stopped me from bothering to watch any longer.  It was like watching a battle of wits between Nagy and Trubisky.  Mitch simply couldn't play Nagy's way and Nagy was too stubborn to make his scheme bend more to Mitch's skill set. 

Even after Lazor took over play calling and showed him how it could work Nagy took back the headset and call sheet and that ended that. It was the clearest sign I saw that Mitch would not be back but Nagy would.  But now the time clock on Nagy's reign as Bears HC is ticking very loudly.

Even as early as this season and with or without Fields he needs to prove that his offensive schemes can hang more points on the board and win games or he will either be fired or enter 2022 as a lame duck HC without a contract extension.  He has to stop going in reverse and show some progress.

It will be interesting to see if MT was really that bad or if it was more Nagy and OL issues.

Some bad games I think it was former and some the later.   He definitely had some really bad games and OL and Nagy definitely let him down in some other games.      

I think odds are fairly good Allen gets hurt at some point and MT gets a chance to play for a good Buffalo offense and we'll see what happens.

I hope best for him he is a nice guy.  

 

[soulman]

1 hour ago, dll2000 said:

It will be interesting to see if MT was really that bad or if it was more Nagy and OL issues.

I eventually began to chalk it up to a bad combination of HC and QB.  Like a marriage between two non-compatible parties who would never be seen as "soul mates".  There was enough blame to spread around the entire offense and Nagy himself.

If there was ever a living example of why it's a bad idea to draft a rookie QB before settling on the guy who'll be expected to coach him to success this would surely be a prime example.  I think that without actually having said it had Nagy beed hired one year earlier Patrick Mahomes would now be the Bears QB.

That part I lay at least some of the blame on Teddy Bears and GMcC for bringing about.  By hamstringing Pace on the HC position he had no one to "collaborate" with regarding the pick.  Fox has since claimed he would have campaigned for Watson.  Pace, on his own with no help from a HC chose the worst option of the three.

Can Mitch become a good NFL QB someday?  I dunno but it's not gonna happen until he learns how to read defense and exhibit more confidence and command over a team.  By most reports Fields already has him beat in that category which is what we want to hear.  Mitch never gave me that kind of confidence that he knew what he was doing.

Edited May 27, 2021 by soulman

[dll2000]

1 hour ago, soulman said:

I eventually began to chalk it up to a bad combination of HC and QB.  Like a marriage between two non-compatible parties who would never be seen as "soul mates".  There was enough blame to spread around the entire offense and Nagy himself.

If there was ever a living example of why it's a bad idea to draft a rookie QB before settling on the guy who'll be expected to coach him to success this would surely be a prime example.  I think that without actually having said it had Nagy beed hired one year earlier Patrick Mahomes would now be the Bears QB.

That part I lay at least some of the blame on Teddy Bears and GMcC for bringing about.  By hamstringing Pace on the HC position he had no one to "collaborate" with regarding the pick.  Fox has since claimed he would have campaigned for Watson.  Pace, on his own with no help from a HC chose the worst option of the three.

Can Mitch become a good NFL QB someday?  I dunno but it's not gonna happen until he learns how to read defense and exhibit more confidence and command over a team.  By most reports Fields already has him beat in that category which is what we want to hear.  Mitch never gave me that kind of confidence that he knew what he was doing.

Yup.   We may have done it again with Fields and some other coach.

At least Nagy likes Fields and was part of decision, may have driven it.   He better get him ready to play.  Not so sure he can survive a 2021 Dalton led Bears team as he states is his plan.

 

[soulman]

3 hours ago, dll2000 said:

Yup.   We may have done it again with Fields and some other coach.

At least Nagy likes Fields and was part of decision, may have driven it.   He better get him ready to play.  Not so sure he can survive a 2021 Dalton led Bears team as he states is his plan.

 

What happens if it all comes down to a choice of losing with either of them?

As talented as he may be we have no assurance that Fields would win more than half his games either.  A .500 record is still a .500 record no matter which QB leads us to it.  If that's gonna be the case I suppose it may be better to give Fields the ball and allow him to learn from the experience but until Nagy can gain enough trust in the OL and rest of the offense to know he's not sending Fields out on a fool's errand and risking serious injury he has a decent vet alternative whom he can risk instead.

[JAF-N72EX]

19 hours ago, dll2000 said:

It will be interesting to see if MT was really that bad or if it was more Nagy and OL issues.

Some bad games I think it was former and some the later.   He definitely had some really bad games and OL and Nagy definitely let him down in some other games.      

I think odds are fairly good Allen gets hurt at some point and MT gets a chance to play for a good Buffalo offense and we'll see what happens.

I hope best for him he is a nice guy.  

 

I gotta believe it was a combo of both. Nagy took the job knowing what he was getting and I think he believed he could "fix" him but Mitch just didn't have the intangibles to make it work on the field.

Nagy tried everything he could. He tried dumbing down the playbook for Mitch. He tried altering it by trying to go with a run game. And eventually just said, look here's the playbook I wanna run.....let's see if you can run it or not (mid-season 2019). If not, we'll look for better options.

Edited May 28, 2021 by JAF-N72EX

[AZBearsFan]

 

On 5/28/2021 at 8:34 AM, JAF-N72EX said:

I gotta believe it was a combo of both. Nagy took the job knowing what he was getting and I think he believed he could "fix" him but Mitch just didn't have the intangibles to make it work on the field.

Nagy tried everything he could. He tried dumbing down the playbook for Mitch. He tried altering it by trying to go with a run game. And eventually just said, look here's the playbook I wanna run.....let's see if you can run it or not (mid-season 2019). If not, we'll look for better options.

Yeah, it’s possible Mitch was just a complete miss, and Nagy actually did a great job to get what he did out of him. Not saying this is likely - just possible. We’ve never seen Nagy without Mitch except for games started by Foles (bad) and Daniel (worse), who were both pretty well set in who they are as NFL players by the time they got to Nagy. There were SO MANY chunk plays left on the field by Mitch, not to mention easy chain-moving completions that were just flat missed, or lost due to inaccurate completed passes that no amount of coaching can minimize. Nagy was able to scheme these opportunities for our offense weekly and they were missed constantly, with many if not most of those missed taking points off the board. 

[JAF-N72EX]

1 hour ago, AZBearsFan said:

 

Yeah, it’s possible Mitch was just a complete miss, and Nagy actually did a great job to get what he did out of him. Not saying this is likely - just possible. We’ve never seen Nagy without Mitch except for games started by Foles (bad) and Daniel (worse), who were both pretty well set in who they are as NFL players by the time they got to Nagy. There were SO MANY chunk plays left on the field by Mitch, not to mention easy chain-moving completions that were just flat missed, or lost due to inaccurate completed passes that no amount of coaching can minimize. Nagy was able to scheme these opportunities for our offense weekly and they were missed constantly, with many if not most of those missed taking points off the board. 

My theory, Nagy thought Mitch was a better QB than he actually was, and at the same time Nagy thought he was a better OC than he actually is. This reamins to be seen though.

I'm not a big fan of Nagy's play-calling to say the least, but I also recognize how much the QB situation has hand-cuffed him and to what extent.

On a bad play, it's often hard at times to decipher, and separate, the differences between a bad play call, or a good play call ruined by poor player execution.

I see some good in Nagy's play-calling and I really do get his vision at times. And there are sometimes when it was the right call ruined by poor exception.

But it's been mainly his lack of late game decision, personal usage, and lack of taking advantage of a defensive weakness is what I'm worried about.