the Jaguars should fire Urban Meyer immediately

[Blue]

1 minute ago, Adrenaline_Flux said:

this thread is a dumpster fire and I've tried to avoid it for the most part because dumb threads annoy me, but a lot of the people you're keying as Urban defenders are anything but. I also would recommend that before telling a bunch of Jags fans that they're wrong about their own team, you should consider watching the games in whole rather than relying on game logs and narrative.

Not only have I watched Jags games this season, I've watched the same process play out as a Packers fan with the Bears and Lions for years. You only see so many failed rebuilds in your division over a decade-plus, including after the first 0-16 team in NFL history, before you start getting cynical about it. I don't see a whole lot of difference between what Urban Meyer did this offseason and what the Matt Patricia regime did in Detroit the past few years. For instance, we didn't get to see if Meyer would actually live up to his talk about Etienne's usage because of the injury, but man, that's a tough pick to defend when you're a 1-15 team with this many holes. I've seen the "our running back is gonna get snaps in the slot" dog and pony show enough times to believe it when I see it and not a moment sooner.

[Blue]

9 minutes ago, Adrenaline_Flux said:

I don't think anyone denies that nepotism is what got Tebow in the door with Jacksonville in the preseason, but TE was our weakest position and kicking the tires on a unique QB-convert familiar with what Urban likes on offense was about as good as any of the other fringe roster options available at the time. It didn't work, which pretty much every rational fan understood going into the experiment, but at the end of the day we're discussing a fringe roster player (as evidenced as being one of the first 5 cut) so to get worked up about it one way or the other is pretty ridiculous and a waste of energy, imo, especially if you're not even a fan of the team.

I understand that people hate Urban Meyer and thirst at the prospect of criticizing him, but I think what gets lost is that if you criticize and villainize every move he makes, especially the small ones, it drowns out the legitimate criticisms there are about him. For every legitimate criticism - see: initial hiring of Chris Doyle - it's drowned out by 3-4 things that don't matter like this Tebow issue, James Robinson not getting carries Week 1 (which was situational), C.J. Henderson getting traded (a player who was an issue prior to Urban getting here and someone who has his own mental health issues going on), etc. 

No one is getting worked up about it here. The fact remains that Meyer very clearly went out and got his former players to take up spots on his 90-man and then 53-man rosters over other options and, in the cases of Etienne and Griffin/Campbell, at positions you had young talent at already.

Maybe CJ Henderson never pans out for Carolina or anybody else. Maybe Robinson isn't all that or Etienne is a star. But to me, those situations look an awful lot like Chicago trading Greg Olsen because he "didn't fit the scheme," and that reflected pretty poorly on Chicago over the long haul. Just my opinion.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Blue

[JiffyJag]

1 minute ago, Blue said:

No one is getting worked up about it here. The fact that remains that Meyer very clearly went out and got his former players to take up spots on his 90-man and then 53-man rosters over other options and, in the cases of Etienne and Griffin/Campbell, at positions you had young talent at already.

Who on the 53 man roster? 

Edited October 7, 2021 by JiffyJag

[Adrenaline_Flux]

Just now, Blue said:

Not only have I watched Jags games this season, I've watched the same process play out as a Packers fan with the Bears and Lions for years. You only see so many failed rebuilds in your division over a decade-plus, including after the first 0-16 team in NFL history, before you start getting cynical about it. I don't see a whole lot of difference between what Urban Meyer did this offseason and what the Matt Patricia regime did in Detroit the past few years. For instance, we didn't get to see if Meyer would actually live up to his talk about Etienne's usage because of the injury, but man, that's a tough pick to defend when you're a 1-15 team with this many holes. I've seen the "our running back is gonna get snaps in the slot" dog and pony show enough times to believe it when I see it and not a moment sooner.

Which Jags games have you watched and did you watch them in their entirety? 

Considering Urban admitted he originally wanted Kadarius Toney with our other first rounder and Travis Etienne's skillset is similar to Toney's, there is no reason to believe that Etienne wouldn't have been used in a similar fashion with the only difference being that his primary position would be RB. Similar to how like Christian McCaffrey and especially Alvin Kamara have been used. 

Etienne was drafted to be a playmaker. I know people see "RB" and "first round" and their inclination is to flip a table, but I think that's a little narrow-minded especially when it comes to the back quarter of the first round. I'm not as adverse to a RB in the first round as others, though I would be very hesitant to take one in the top 20 unless they were AP-level. I did a longwinded deep dive back after the draft and what I found then was that the back quarter of the first round is the sweet spot to take a RB if you think they can be a legitimate difference-maker.

Here's the fact: the Jaguars were bottom 5 in the league in rushing yardage last year despite having a legitimate RB1 in James Robinson + James Robinson missed time at the end of the season because he was replied upon so heavily and his body didn't hold up by the end. That's part of why Etienne was selected and why Carlos Hyde was brought in. In addition, Urban's offenses historically have relied on a slash player that allows versatile big-play ability in his offense as well as a hurry-up offense where guys can be moved around to different spots to create mismatches. This is often referred to as the "Percy Harvin role" because that's the guy most people think of. Urban's #1 target for this was Toney, but Etienne was his backup option for the position in the draft once the team missed out on Toney. 

This is kind of what I mentioned before though. If you criticize every single thing without actually looking into what's going on, it drowns out the legitimate criticisms. 

[Adrenaline_Flux]

8 minutes ago, Blue said:

No one is getting worked up about it here. The fact remains that Meyer very clearly went out and got his former players to take up spots on his 90-man and then 53-man rosters over other options and, in the cases of Etienne and Griffin/Campbell, at positions you had young talent at already.

Maybe CJ Henderson never pans out for Carolina or anybody else. Maybe Robinson isn't all that or Etienne is a star. But to me, those situations look an awful lot like Chicago trading Greg Olsen because he "didn't fit the scheme," and that reflected pretty poorly on Chicago over the long haul. Just my opinion.

Who are all these former players he brought in and who did they steal spots from? Who has Carlos Hyde stolen a spot from? Who did Tim Tebow steal a spot from?

I've explained in detail why Etienne was a player of need. With Griffin & Campbell the initial process was that the defense that Urban wants to run likes CB depth. I didn't love that we traded away Sidney Jones, but I also understood it at the time since we were pretty stacked at the position on paper with the acquisitions of Griffin & Campbell. I do think the Jones trade is something you can legitimately criticize, but not because of the Griffin & Campbell acquisitions. 

They tried to make things work with Henderson, but it didn't, which is why he was traded. The prior regime had told local reporters to watch out for Henderson before Urban was ever hired, Urban had to convince Henderson to even return to football, and they finally traded him away which honestly is probably the best thing for him to get out of Florida (he grew up in Miami, went to school in Gainesville, and was drafted by Jacksonville; he has mental health issues and has admitted in the past - bragged even - about only sleeping 2 hours a day). 

[Blue]

5 minutes ago, JiffyJag said:

Who on the 53 man roster? 

You gonna sit here and tell me they didn't pick Carlos Hyde to be on this team over other players?

5 minutes ago, Adrenaline_Flux said:

Which Jags games have you watched and did you watch them in their entirety? 

Considering Urban admitted he originally wanted Kadarius Toney with our other first rounder and Travis Etienne's skillset is similar to Toney's, there is no reason to believe that Etienne wouldn't have been used in a similar fashion with the only difference being that his primary position would be RB. Similar to how like Christian McCaffrey and especially Alvin Kamara have been used. 

Etienne was drafted to be a playmaker. I know people see "RB" and "first round" and their inclination is to flip a table, but I think that's a little narrow-minded especially when it comes to the back quarter of the first round. I'm not as adverse to a RB in the first round as others, though I would be very hesitant to take one in the top 20 unless they were AP-level. I did a longwinded deep dive back after the draft and what I found then was that the back quarter of the first round is the sweet spot to take a RB if you think they can be a legitimate difference-maker.

Here's the fact: the Jaguars were bottom 5 in the league in rushing yardage last year despite having a legitimate RB1 in James Robinson + James Robinson missed time at the end of the season because he was replied upon so heavily and his body didn't hold up by the end. That's part of why Etienne was selected and why Carlos Hyde was brought in. In addition, Urban's offenses historically have relied on a slash player that allows versatile big-play ability in his offense as well as a hurry-up offense where guys can be moved around to different spots to create mismatches. This is often referred to as the "Percy Harvin role" because that's the guy most people think of. Urban's #1 target for this was Toney, but Etienne was his backup option for the position in the draft once the team missed out on Toney. 

This is kind of what I mentioned before though. If you criticize every single thing without actually looking into what's going on, it drowns out the legitimate criticisms. 

I literally watched the Thursday night game this past week.

You don't need to spend a first round pick on a running back, let alone one you envision in a timeshare. Again, maybe Meyer walks the walk with Etienne's usage, but we see the same rhetoric every year from coaches about how the running back is gonna be used out of the backfield more and it doesn't happen. Criticize me for cynicism if you want.

[Blue]

2 minutes ago, Adrenaline_Flux said:

Who are all these former players he brought in and who did they steal spots from? Who has Carlos Hyde stolen a spot from? Who did Tim Tebow steal a spot from?

I've explained in detail why Etienne was a player of need. With Griffin & Campbell the initial process was that the defense that Urban wants to run likes CB depth. I didn't love that we traded away Sidney Jones, but I also understood it at the time since we were pretty stacked at the position on paper with the acquisitions of Griffin & Campbell. I do think the Jones trade is something you can legitimately criticize, but not because of the Griffin & Campbell acquisitions. 

They tried to make things work with Henderson, but it didn't, which is why he was traded. The prior regime had told local reporters to watch out for Henderson before Urban was ever hired, Urban had to convince Henderson to even return to football, and they finally traded him away which honestly is probably the best thing for him to get out of Florida (he grew up in Miami, went to school in Gainesville, and was drafted by Jacksonville; he has mental health issues and has admitted in the past - bragged even - about only sleeping 2 hours a day). 

Man, why would anyone listen to anything the previous coaching staff had to say. Look at the talent exodus from this team under said coaching staff. Maybe the players weren't the problem.

[JiffyJag]

3 minutes ago, Blue said:

You gonna sit here and tell me they didn't pick Carlos Hyde to be on this team over other players?

 

Is this a joke? Your answer is literally 1 player? Lmao 

Carlos Hyde is also a perfectly fine RB3…..

Edited October 7, 2021 by JiffyJag

[Adrenaline_Flux]

2 minutes ago, Blue said:

I literally watched the Thursday night game this past week.

You don't need to spend a first round pick on a running back, let alone one you envision in a timeshare. Again, maybe Meyer walks the walk with Etienne's usage, but we see the same rhetoric every year from coaches about how the running back is gonna be used out of the backfield more and it doesn't happen. Criticize me for cynicism if you want.

I think at this point you can be criticized for more than just cynicism. 

[Adrenaline_Flux]

1 minute ago, Blue said:

Man, why would anyone listen to anything the previous coaching staff had to say. Look at the talent exodus from this team under said coaching staff. Maybe the players weren't the problem.

Considering that was said by the prior coaching staff about a player who has missed about half his potential games, then had to be convinced by the current coaching staff in his home to show up to camp, and then was traded by this coaching staff less than 4 weeks into the regular season I think that in this particular instance it's the player. I'm not going to call him a "problem" because it's clear that he has his own mental health issues - which, as I said, include that he has admitted to only getting 2 hours of sleep a night. 

[Blue]

1 minute ago, Adrenaline_Flux said:

I think at this point you can be criticized for more than just cynicism. 

No, y'all just don't want to admit that Urban has wasted another year of your team's rebuild.

[JiffyJag]

4 minutes ago, JiffyJag said:

Is this a joke? Your answer is literally 1 player? Lmao 

Carlos Hyde is also a perfectly fine RB3…..

For reference, there are 8 players from Temple or Baylor on the Panthers right now.

[Blue]

1 minute ago, JiffyJag said:

For reference, there are 8 players from Temple or Baylor on the Panthers right now.

How many games have the Panthers won this year?

[Adrenaline_Flux]

Just now, Blue said:

No, y'all just don't want to admit that Urban has wasted another year of your team's rebuild.

We're four weeks into the season. There are things that Urban has messed up on, but there are things that shouldn't be criticized either even if they don't necessarily work out. As sad as it is to say, Urban has a vision for what he wants to do schematically with the team which is more than what we can say about multiple previous regimes. A lot of the specific instances you brought up as well have been refuted and you've failed to rebut (I imagine due to a combo of you just skimming and picking out one thing to respond to + not actually knowing enough about the team to comment). 

When you make blanket statements and fail to back them up and criticize everything that someone does, like I said, it drowns out the legitimate criticisms. You may know the Packers and may even know the Bears & Lions and you may hate Urban Meyer for legitimate reasons, but you don't know anything about the Jaguars or what Urban has actually done here so far. Urban may set this franchise back five years. who knows? all I know is that you don't know.

[JiffyJag]

2 minutes ago, Blue said:

How many games have the Panthers won this year?

How many did they win last year? How about the year before? I’m sure you were calling for Rhule’s head after he led the Panthers to just 5 wins in his first season, especially after just signing a bunch of his own guys, right?