2021 Week 8 GDT Steelers visit Da Browns

[AFF]

1 minute ago, warfelg said:

He was subtweeting PFTs stupid take on Tomlin’s “volunteers not hostages” comment. 

Well damn.

After looking at his contract he can’t be moved anyways...he’s been restructured a few times from the looks of it by the eagles.

[43M]

8 hours ago, warfelg said:

Since you don’t want to answer my simple question there’s no conversation to have. 

Ive already stated numerous times that I wasnt saying he had to do everything by himself and I understood it hurt his game,   but in your pathetic desperation to misinterpret my argument, you completely made up things I never even said and ignored points that were made.  You want me to answer a question that you already answered, yet you completely ignored several things I pointed out, and now youre claiming Im not answering YOUR question?

Zero self awareness there, apparently.

Lets just be real here...You are just pissy I dont think he is as good as you do.  You act like youve proven me wrong when you havent.   Im not even saying Im 100% right....I just said he is inconsistent and I dont want to pay him elite safety money, but apparently, thats not good enough for you.

Too bad.

Fortunately for you, he will likely get resigned for elite money.   If he becomes a consistently good-great player....so be it.  Ill eat my crow.   If he remains extremely inconsistent, Im sure youll have a couple highlights and a boatload of excuses for why he isnt living up to his contract.

[warfelg]

5 minutes ago, 43M said:

Ive already stated numerous times that I wasnt saying he had to do everything by himself and I understood it hurt his game,   but in your pathetic desperation to misinterpret my argument, you completely made up things I never even said and ignored points that were made.  You want me to answer a question that you already answered, yet you completely ignored several things I pointed out, and now youre claiming Im not answering YOUR question?

Zero self awareness there, apparently.

Lets just be real here...You are just pissy I dont think he is as good as you do.  You act like youve proven me wrong when you havent.   Im not even saying Im 100% right....I just said he is inconsistent and I dont want to pay him elite safety money, but apparently, thats not good enough for you.

Too bad.

Fortunately for you, he will likely get resigned for elite money.   If he becomes a consistently good-great player....so be it.  Ill eat my crow.   If he remains extremely inconsistent, Im sure youll have a couple highlights and a boatload of excuses for why he isnt living up to his contract.

Dude, I'm not pissy about anything and I don't do the crap you are projecting here.

You made the comment that he's rather average and not as good as the last few years, and I made the statement that safeties being elite is a matter of the talent they play with.  I just want you to answer if there is a safety out there who that doesn't apply to and you copped an attitude over it.

It's not that what you said isn't good enough.....it's trying to figure out this benchmark of who these elite safeties are that deserve the money because they can make up for mistakes to the degree we're seeing.

[43M]

6 hours ago, MOSteelers56 said:

The days of Sean Davis patrolling the middle of the field makes me ok with paying Minkah. 

I distinctly recall numerous fans on here making excuses for Sean Davis too.   Not comparing their talent levels, but it illustrates my point that even a talented guy like Minkah needs alot of help to look good.

This all reminds me of about a decade ago, arguing about Ike Taylor.    I got roasted for saying he was an extremely average player that benefitted from all the talent around him.    I think Minkah is a much better talent, but he certainly has flaws and is pretty inconsistent, especially this year.

There is also a huge disparity between paying Minkah elite safety money and going back to a guy like Sean Davis.

[MOSteelers56]

Just now, 43M said:

I distinctly recall numerous fans on here making excuses for Sean Davis too.   Not comparing their talent levels, but it illustrates my point that even a talented guy like Minkah needs alot of help to look good.

This all reminds me of about a decade ago, arguing about Ike Taylor.    I got roasted for saying he was an extremely average player that benefitted from all the talent around him.    I think Minkah is a much better talent, but he certainly has flaws and is pretty inconsistent, especially this year.

There is also a huge disparity between paying Minkah elite safety money and going back to a guy like Sean Davis.

I think the cupboard is pretty bare when it comes to safety talent in the league. I'm not so sure there is much of a middle rung of talent. Honestly, I haven't looked too much around the league but I constantly hear complaining about safety play league wide. We've certainly seen it with the Steelers post TP and Clark. I can't even think of a relatively good safety we've had since then. And I was a defender of Davis back in the day. I think he would have been a lot better on a more talented defense, but his max was probably average. We've seen what Minkah's top end is like, and that's elite. Give him a better run stopping ILB in front, and a pass rush that wins slightly more and he'll be back to top 1-3 in the league. That's the nature of the beast with Safeties. 

[warfelg]

6 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I think the cupboard is pretty bare when it comes to safety talent in the league. I'm not so sure there is much of a middle rung of talent. Honestly, I haven't looked too much around the league but I constantly hear complaining about safety play league wide. We've certainly seen it with the Steelers post TP and Clark. I can't even think of a relatively good safety we've had since then. And I was a defender of Davis back in the day. I think he would have been a lot better on a more talented defense, but his max was probably average. We've seen what Minkah's top end is like, and that's elite. Give him a better run stopping ILB in front, and a pass rush that wins slightly more and he'll be back to top 1-3 in the league. That's the nature of the beast with Safeties. 

Not even that. 1 good LB and a good corner and he’s back to elite. He’s trying to do too much right now. 

[warfelg]

32 minutes ago, 43M said:

I distinctly recall numerous fans on here making excuses for Sean Davis too.   Not comparing their talent levels, but it illustrates my point that even a talented guy like Minkah needs alot of help to look good.

This all reminds me of about a decade ago, arguing about Ike Taylor.    I got roasted for saying he was an extremely average player that benefitted from all the talent around him.    I think Minkah is a much better talent, but he certainly has flaws and is pretty inconsistent, especially this year.

There is also a huge disparity between paying Minkah elite safety money and going back to a guy like Sean Davis.

On the first bolded, my issue with Sean Davis was more that they seemed to think he was able to do much more than he was capable of.  Something they still have issues with in the secondary.

On the second bolded, and what's different from this year compared to the last two?  He's not any more inconsistent.  He didn't suddenly gain flaws he didn't have.

[43M]

3 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Dude, I'm not pissy about anything and I don't do the crap you are projecting here.

Its not projecting at all.   Youve blatantly misinterpreted my stance numerous times, such as...

3 minutes ago, warfelg said:

You made the comment that he's rather average

I never said he was average.  Not once.  If anything, he is anything BUT average.

3 minutes ago, warfelg said:

and not as good as the last few years, and I made the statement that safeties being elite is a matter of the talent they play with.

And my point is, that type of player is not worth elite money.

Similar to why I wouldnt pay any RB elite money.  99% of RBs are way too dependent on OLINE for success.   If Minkahs high level of play is SO dependent on the players around him, I dont consider him worth elite money.   Doesnt mean I wouldn't pay him nicely, but $13m+ a year?   No.

If you disagree...fine.

3 minutes ago, warfelg said:

 I just want you to answer if there is a safety out there who that doesn't apply to and you copped an attitude over it.

My "attitude" only stemmed from you ignoring the other points I made, while pushing a question based on something I never even said...then you answered the question yourself.

The answer isnt as black and white as "yes or no".    There are too many variables that cant even be adequately answered without a ton of film study.

What it ultimately comes down to is paying a player elite money when they need so much help to actually be elite.

Lets just say for a moment that youre right...what if we dont improve those other positions?  

Minkah has a ton of talent, but if that talent cant be utilized consistently, is he really worth THAT much?

Football is the ultimate team sport.   There are alot of moving parts.   I understand your stance.    I just dont trust Minkah to be a consistently great player for us, and thats what it comes down to.

 

 

[bigben07MVP]

Re: Minkah

[warfelg]

Then why can't just name a safety you think is elite regardless of the situation?  That's all I want to know.  What's your bar of elite?  AAV, cap numbers, contracts in the NFL is all like the points in "Who's Line"; it's all irrelevant and doesn't matter.  You could give Minkah a 10 year $140mil deal....all that matters is the $10 mil that gtd.  

So I'm guessing because you don't/won't/can't answer, there are no elite safeties in the NFL in your opinion.

 

Like, @43M that's all I'm asking for.  What's the bar of a player you think is an elite safety that makes elite safety money and the situation doesn't dictate their play?  Because unfortunately the NFL money operates on who the last guy is to get paid at all positions.  

Let me rephrase what I want to understand.

Justin Simmons on the Steelers or Minkah?  Eddie Jackson or Minkah? (BTW don't look now but Jackson is having a worse season than Minkah) Byard, Mathieu, Smith? Amos, Maye?  Like, I think they would all look similar to Minkah right now.

Edited November 2, 2021 by warfelg

[bigben07MVP]

2 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Then why can't just name a safety you think is elite regardless of the situation?  That's all I want to know.  What's your bar of elite?  AAV, cap numbers, contracts in the NFL is all like the points in "Who's Line"; it's all irrelevant and doesn't matter.  You could give Minkah a 10 year $140mil deal....all that matters is the $10 mil that gtd.  

So I'm guessing because you don't/won't/can't answer, there are no elite safeties in the NFL in your opinion.

Derwin James but outside of that I’m having a hard time thinking of a safety I’d prefer over Minkah. Maybe Justin Simmons.

[warfelg]

9 minutes ago, bigben07MVP said:

Derwin James but outside of that I’m having a hard time thinking of a safety I’d prefer over Minkah. Maybe Justin Simmons.

Yea.  Tyrann Mathieu is having the exact same dip this year as Minkah, and he's about the only safety I would want to replace Minkah.  I think there were just so many holes, the coaching staff thought if they used Minkah like a swiss army knife it would fix stuff and get him more splash plays by making it harder to predict where he would be, but really it made it harder on him to constantly change and not get a feel of the game.

 

Also, Derwin James is this generations Bob Sanders.  Great player, can't stay healthy.

Edited November 2, 2021 by warfelg

[Dcash4]

6 hours ago, 43M said:

but $13m+ a year?   No

If that’s your number, I would just delete Twitter and forget your password to FF.com this off-season. 

If I’m saving money at safety, I’m doing it with Edmunds. He has been a nice player, but what he does is replaceable at $6M per year at his going rate. Save that $6m on a low level FA, maybe just using more Norwood, or finding a mid round S. There is no dollar amount that can replace Minkah. I’ll pay a premium for special every time. 

[43M]

2 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

If that’s your number, I would just delete Twitter and forget your password to FF.com this off-season. 

If I’m saving money at safety, I’m doing it with Edmunds. He has been a nice player, but what he does is replaceable at $6M per year at his going rate. Save that $6m on a low level FA, maybe just using more Norwood, or finding a mid round S. There is no dollar amount that can replace Minkah. I’ll pay a premium for special every time. 

Dont have Twatter, and this place would fall apart without me.  

Fair enough on Edmunds, but this whole "premium for special" is where I simply cant get on board.   He better finish this season damn strong, because Ive seen nothing close to special from Minkah for awhile.    Maybe years of watching Ed and Troy have spoiled me, but beyond that, I just dont find myself thinking "our defense would be notably worse without him" the way I think that about TJ and Heyward.   

[BradfordSteeler]

3 hours ago, 43M said:

Dont have Twatter, and this place would fall apart without me.  

Fair enough on Edmunds, but this whole "premium for special" is where I simply cant get on board.   He better finish this season damn strong, because Ive seen nothing close to special from Minkah for awhile.    Maybe years of watching Ed and Troy have spoiled me, but beyond that, I just dont find myself thinking "our defense would be notably worse without him" the way I think that about TJ and Heyward.   

Someone has already posted the play against Landry on Sunday where Minkah is literally playing two players worth of coverage and manages to break up the pass. Whether Landry was having a good game or not, he makes that catch if there is no pressure from Minkah, Sutton had completely lost him. That is special. More of a breakdown below.