Is T.O closer to Peak Randy Moss or Peak Marvin Harrison

[MikeT14]

It's you got Moss'd not you got Owens'd. 

Regardless, TO is closer to Moss and the #2 all time rather than Harrison's ... I dunno. 7th? 

[Duluther]

As a Vikings fan, TO is completely on-par with Moss. Harrison is behind both.

[AngusMcFife]

8 hours ago, MikeT14 said:

It's you got Moss'd not you got Owens'd. 

"You got mossed" is the name of a TV segment, not evidence that one player is superior to another. 

[LuckIsGOAT]

9 hours ago, ET80 said:

Maybe in Madden, sure.

In real life, Moss was a better at everything except slant/drag routes. He was better at contested grabs, better on fade routes, better in the RZ, had MUCH better hands, better body control at the highest point of the football, better catch radius...

Moss is still the most physically gifted WR to play, and he played to those gifts. TO was plenty good, but not as good as Moss.

You don't know what you're talking about. T.O is a better route runner, better with the ball, better blocker and better catching in traffic.

Moss is faster straight line and better on jump balls. Moss didn't have the occasional wtf drop like T.O.

Edited November 10, 2021 by LuckIsGOAT

[ET80]

5 hours ago, LuckIsGOAT said:

You don't know what you're talking about. T.O is a better route runner, better with the ball, better blocker and better catching in traffic.

Moss is faster straight line and better on jump balls. Moss didn't have the occasional wtf drop like T.O.

So this is why nearly every single publication, journalist, etc has Moss as the 2nd or 3rd best WR in football history, behind only Rice and Don Huston and ahead of Owens:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2797941-the-top-10-nfl-wide-receivers-of-all-time

https://www.audacy.com/sports/nfl/gallery/best-nfl-wide-receivers-ever#3--terrell-owens-cks6pmcrh003b3h6zblou2n9h

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/the_50_greatest_wrs_of_all_time/s1__27038765

https://clutchpoints.com/ranking-the-20-greatest-nfl-wide-receivers-of-all-time/

https://thesportsdrop.com/articles/ranking-the-best-wide-receivers-in-nfl-history/5/

https://www.nfl.com/photos/gil-brandt-s-greatest-nfl-receivers-of-all-time-0ap3000000816078

https://www.nfl.com/photos/ten-best-receivers-of-all-time-0ap3000000642432

But yeah - collectively, WE don't know what we're talking about, but YOU do. Give me a break.

Moss was better than Owens, and literally every single entity that follows the sport universally agrees on that point. You're on an island against experts, people who have followed this sport much longer than you have.

[Mox]

20 hours ago, ET80 said:

Maybe in Madden, sure.

In real life, Moss was a better at everything except slant/drag routes. He was better at contested grabs, better on fade routes, better in the RZ, had MUCH better hands, better body control at the highest point of the football, better catch radius...

Moss is still the most physically gifted WR to play, and he played to those gifts. TO was plenty good, but not as good as Moss.

I agree Moss was better than Owens but give me TO's route running, YAC ability, blocking, etc. over Randy's any day of the week. The hands are the big difference.

[ET80]

33 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

I agree Moss was better than Owens but give me TO's route running, YAC ability, blocking, etc. over Randy's any day of the week. The hands are the big difference.

I'd say it depends on the type of route - if you're running a WCO with a lot of horizontal options, you'd probably want Owens because of his ability to get a head of steam going. Someone ( @scar988) compared Owens to Julio Jones (and I'd compare Julio to Andre Johnson) and all three WRs did their best work in WCO variants ran by Steve Maruicci, Andy Reid, Kyle Shanahan, Gary Kubiak, etc. Running those "inside the numbers" routes plays to their strength, and I'll say that's something those did better than anyone else.

This being said - Moss wasn't too far off from these guys on this, simply because of the response to what Moss could do, which is blow by people giving him a 10 yard cushion (to which I've never seen anyone do in my life). Moss is still the only WR who would consistently get 15+ yard cushions, so he exploited those on the same routes that TO (Julio/Andre) would exploit.

TL;DR - Owens was better on certain routes, but not by much. Moss had routes that only he could run, routes that were impervious to pretty much any coverage.

I'd contest the YAC piece of it, too - people operate in that Owens was the more physical WR, and that's true. However, Moss created YAC by simply being faster than anyone on the field, he'd catch screen passes and fly right by everyone like they had concrete in their shoes...

Watch the 1:25 mark - he breaks a tackle (standard) but he actually outruns two guys who were 10 yards deep on him (one of which is Darren Woodson, one of the most elite S from that era). Didn't matter on the angle or the position - Moss flat out burned by them.

The big play here is at 1:55 - it was a naked screen and he runs past pretty much the entire secondary and leaves them several yards behind. Not a single block, not a single pump to get the defense on their heels - they all converge on Moss and he just flies past 'em. He's got a similar play at the 2:10 mark - he was so fast, he was able to catch a quick hitch and flat foot every DB on the field.

Sure, TO was more physical. But this sort of speed? I've never seen it, even to this day. YAC was measured in miles, not yards with Moss.

[Mox]

17 minutes ago, ET80 said:

I'd say it depends on the type of route - if you're running a WCO with a lot of horizontal options, you'd probably want Owens because of his ability to get a head of steam going. Someone ( @scar988) compared Owens to Julio Jones (and I'd compare Julio to Andre Johnson) and all three WRs did their best work in WCO variants ran by Steve Maruicci, Andy Reid, Kyle Shanahan, Gary Kubiak, etc. Running those "inside the numbers" routes plays to their strength, and I'll say that's something those did better than anyone else.

This being said - Moss wasn't too far off from these guys on this, simply because of the response to what Moss could do, which is blow by people giving him a 10 yard cushion (to which I've never seen anyone do in my life). Moss is still the only WR who would consistently get 15+ yard cushions, so he exploited those on the same routes that TO (Julio/Andre) would exploit.

TL;DR - Owens was better on certain routes, but not by much. Moss had routes that only he could run, routes that were impervious to pretty much any coverage.

I'd contest the YAC piece of it, too - people operate in that Owens was the more physical WR, and that's true. However, Moss created YAC by simply being faster than anyone on the field, he'd catch screen passes and fly right by everyone like they had concrete in their shoes...

 

Watch the 1:25 mark - he breaks a tackle (standard) but he actually outruns two guys who were 10 yards deep on him (one of which is Darren Woodson, one of the most elite S from that era). Didn't matter on the angle or the position - Moss flat out burned by them.

The big play here is at 1:55 - it was a naked screen and he runs past pretty much the entire secondary and leaves them several yards behind. Not a single block, not a single pump to get the defense on their heels - they all converge on Moss and he just flies past 'em. He's got a similar play at the 2:10 mark - he was so fast, he was able to bring in a quick hitch and flat foot every DB on the field.

Sure, TO was more physical. But this sort of speed? I've never seen it, even to this day. YAC was measured in miles, not yards with Moss.

If you want to argue Moss is on another level athletically I'm with you. If you want to argue that Moss warped defenses in ways the TO didn't, I'm with you. I don't think the routes or YAC are close. You can point to specific plays where Moss did something TO never could but those plays are few and far between in terms of YAC and you're acting like it was the norm. TO couldn't do what Moss did after the catch at his best but he did significantly more on average than Moss did. He was far more consistent of a YAC threat, far more physical, was a higher effort player, he ran a higher variety of routes, and ran them at a higher intensity. He didn't a run a deep route as well, and he wasn't as smooth as Moss was but he gave a lot more effort on them, and was less predictable as well. The idea of Moss often exceeds the reality of him, which is insane because he's still clearly #2 ever.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Bullet Club

[ET80]

4 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

TO couldn't do what Moss did after the catch at his best but he did significantly more on average than Moss did.

Ok, I'll concede this.

10 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

... he ran a higher variety of routes, and ran them at a higher intensity.

I'd take this as more of a function of the offense over any individual ability, it's not like WRs run their own routes - they stat within the confines of the playcall, right?

TO ran the majority of his career in modified WCOs, right? That would lend itself to more varied routes vs some of the speed spread stuff that Moss played in.

13 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

He didn't a run a deep route as well, and he wasn't as smooth as Moss was but he gave a lot more effort on them, and was less predictable as well.

I'm going to second guess the effort component - if we're being real, both of them had motivation issues at times (Moss would loaf on some routes, TO would alligator arm some catchable passes, especially in his Dallas tenure). I'll call that a push, fair?

15 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

The idea of Moss often exceeds the reality of him, which is insane because he's still clearly #2 ever.

It's possible, but watching it in real time leads to that, IMO. I didn't have a team during Moss' early years, so I watched him take retired QBs and turn em into Pro Bowl guys - it wasn't like anything I've seen, but perhaps I am romanticizing it some.

[Mox]

1 minute ago, ET80 said:

Ok, I'll concede this.

I'd take this as more of a function of the offense over any individual ability, it's not like WRs run their own routes - they stat within the confines of the playcall, right?

TO ran the majority of his career in modified WCOs, right? That would lend itself to more varied routes vs some of the speed spread stuff that Moss played in.

I'm going to second guess the effort component - if we're being real, both of them had motivation issues at times (Moss would loaf on some routes, TO would alligator arm some catchable passes, especially in his Dallas tenure). I'll call that a push, fair?

It's possible, but watching it in real time leads to that, IMO. I didn't have a team during Moss' early years, so I watched him take retired QBs and turn em into Pro Bowl guys - it wasn't like anything I've seen, but perhaps I am romanticizing it some.

This is all mostly fair. The thing I'll add is this: If you had both of them in a facility and said run each route to their best of their ability, Moss would probably run every route better. However, if you took the totality of their actual careers to see who ran better routes I'd bet TO has a clear advantage.

[OkeyDoke21]

11 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

This is all mostly fair. The thing I'll add is this: If you had both of them in a facility and said run each route to their best of their ability, Moss would probably run every route better. However, if you took the totality of their actual careers to see who ran better routes I'd bet TO has a clear advantage.

I'd agree to this.  Randy was as good as Randy wanted to be.  Always.  Part of this point probably has a lot to do with their journeys to get where they got to be. 

Moss was so naturally blessed, that he was always on top.  Even at his low points, he was still the most physically gifted player on every field he ever walked onto, and he and everyone around him, knew it.  He never needed to be a grinder, he just needed to not allow himself to spiral out of control, and he was set.  The guy came straight into the NFL, talking about how he didn't need to stretch, because his talent is God-given, and then made people believe. 

TO had to grind.  He always had to prove himself, and he worked and played like it.  Both were divas, but they were divas in different ways.  Both were physical freaks, but they were also freaks, in different ways.  TO moreso created his freak, while Randy was blessed with his.  That difference in mindset plays right into what you're saying about their route running.  Randy was a better route runner, imo, but TO was more consistent, which is a worth mentioning differentiator in their RR abilities when compared to each other.  

I'd take Randy on the majority of fronts as a player, though.  I'd rather coach him, have him as a teammate, place him in my lockerroom than TO.  Both would be frustrating, and you'd never have to worry about TO putting in the work to better himself, but I always found him to come off as far more toxic than Moss.  

[Mox]

18 minutes ago, OkeyDoke21 said:

I'd agree to this.  Randy was as good as Randy wanted to be.  Always.  Part of this point probably has a lot to do with their journeys to get where they got to be. 

Moss was so naturally blessed, that he was always on top.  Even at his low points, he was still the most physically gifted player on every field he ever walked onto, and he and everyone around him, knew it.  He never needed to be a grinder, he just needed to not allow himself to spiral out of control, and he was set.  The guy came straight into the NFL, talking about how he didn't need to stretch, because his talent is God-given, and then made people believe. 

TO had to grind.  He always had to prove himself, and he worked and played like it.  Both were divas, but they were divas in different ways.  Both were physical freaks, but they were also freaks, in different ways.  TO moreso created his freak, while Randy was blessed with his.  That difference in mindset plays right into what you're saying about their route running.  Randy was a better route runner, imo, but TO was more consistent, which is a worth mentioning differentiator in their RR abilities when compared to each other.  

I'd take Randy on the majority of fronts as a player, though.  I'd rather coach him, have him as a teammate, place him in my lockerroom than TO.  Both would be frustrating, and you'd never have to worry about TO putting in the work to better himself, but I always found him to come off as far more toxic than Moss.  

Yes, this is exactly my point. Randy being as good as he wanted to be makes him kind of a mythological figure because he did things no one else could do, and you were always terrified he would...but he didn't always feel like doing it. Randy's diva issues were more apparent on the field. TO's were more apparent off it. It made TO a nightmare to deal with but as you said you never had to worry about him putting work in. He was a legitimate producing force at 37, and likely had a lot more left in the tank but his personality ruined him. Moss was washed by 33. Again, Moss was better overall, but TO did certain things better.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Bullet Club

[MikeT14]

13 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

"You got mossed" is the name of a TV segment, not evidence that one player is superior to another. 

I get that, but I’m just joking that we have that segment because he’s better 😂

[AngusMcFife]

13 hours ago, ET80 said:

So this is why nearly every single publication, journalist, etc has Moss as the 2nd or 3rd best WR in football history, behind only Rice and Don Huston and ahead of Owens:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2797941-the-top-10-nfl-wide-receivers-of-all-time

https://www.audacy.com/sports/nfl/gallery/best-nfl-wide-receivers-ever#3--terrell-owens-cks6pmcrh003b3h6zblou2n9h

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/the_50_greatest_wrs_of_all_time/s1__27038765

https://clutchpoints.com/ranking-the-20-greatest-nfl-wide-receivers-of-all-time/

https://thesportsdrop.com/articles/ranking-the-best-wide-receivers-in-nfl-history/5/

https://www.nfl.com/photos/gil-brandt-s-greatest-nfl-receivers-of-all-time-0ap3000000816078

https://www.nfl.com/photos/ten-best-receivers-of-all-time-0ap3000000642432

But yeah - collectively, WE don't know what we're talking about, but YOU do. Give me a break.

Moss was better than Owens, and literally every single entity that follows the sport universally agrees on that point. You're on an island against experts, people who have followed this sport much longer than you have.

 

The problem is that there is a very observable, huge media bias against TO. The fact that he was not inducted to the HOF on his first 2 chances when eligible is an incredible black mark on that institution and sports writers in general. 

[AngusMcFife]

8 hours ago, ET80 said:

Watch the 1:25 mark - he breaks a tackle (standard) but he actually outruns two guys who were 10 yards deep on him (one of which is Darren Woodson, one of the most elite S from that era). Didn't matter on the angle or the position - Moss flat out burned by them.

The big play here is at 1:55 - it was a naked screen and he runs past pretty much the entire secondary and leaves them several yards behind. Not a single block, not a single pump to get the defense on their heels - they all converge on Moss and he just flies past 'em. He's got a similar play at the 2:10 mark - he was so fast, he was able to catch a quick hitch and flat foot every DB on the field.

Sure, TO was more physical. But this sort of speed? I've never seen it, even to this day. YAC was measured in miles, not yards with Moss.

If you are going to start breaking down individual plays, TO had WAY more plays in his career where he caught a short ball and turned it into a huge gain. You are portraying Moss as this mythical WR, but he wasn't special creating after the catch or making tough catches over the middle in traffic. He was more of a long strider with great speed and ability to make acrobatic catches down the sideline. TO had superior lateral quickness and acceleration, and toughness as well .