We Need Another ILB In 2022

[beardown3231]

In the draft I'd go WR, OG, S, and TE for sure

In free agency I'd go WR and DE

The few positions I'm up in the air about to address are CB, QB, ILB and C

Is there a C who's decent yet cheap? They could take a CB in the draft, but maybe a 1-2 year deal for a solid vet is best. That allows Vildor to slide inside where he's better (I guess). I think Dalton coming back makes some sense although with more picks taking a QB in round 5 or 6 who's athletic like Fields would be ideal.  I like Tindall, Walker and Muma a lot in round 3 but maybe they don't view ILB as a huge need and perhaps to solve it they keep Ogletree

I'd definitely take a WR and sign one, unless Robinson stays (long shot). I may even draft 2 receivers + sign one. I'd like an athletic TE/HB type. James and Fields have a connection but let's face it he's a nobody. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by beardown3231

[dll2000]

1 hour ago, soulman said:

I can recall quite clearly that when Nelson was ranked far and away as the best OL in his draft quite a few still believed an OG, no matter how good, should ever be taken as a top ten draft pick.  What would those some people say to that now?  The guy is a super-stud OL.

I'd still say that.  Give me a great CB, Edge, OT, S or QB over Quentin Nelson any day and twice on Sunday.

I see Roquan Smith much the same way.  His size may have been the only factor one might have argued with as a reason for lowering his draft ranking yet he's likely to be an All Pro ILB this year and quite possibly should have been even last year.  We need more of him and not less.

See above. 

As for Pace's draft day trades.

I can't honestly say they're "panic induced" nor can anyone else without first knowing who he chose to vault over to get a player he badly wanted to draft.  In most cases that I can think of he didn't misjudge the player either.  He's scored more often than not on those he did trade up for.

He traded up for Floyd, Kwit, Trubisky, E. Jackson, Montgomery and Gipson.   Not sure that is winning more often than not.  I would say no.   

Bust, ILB that hardly played, Bust, Good trade, RB who are devalued, remains to be seen.   That is two first round bust trades which weigh heavier.   

What he had to give up to makes those trades is tough to criticize as well.  We can make that claim but it isn't as easy  as we may think it is.  First you have to find a team willing to trade.  If there's only one who is then you either have to pay the price or risk losing that player.

We also don't know what other teams ahead of us may also have ranked that player as we did and may have drafted him ahead of us had we not made the trade.  We saw this happen under JA and we also saw it happen under Phil Emery with Aaron Donald going to LA two picks earlier.

Pace is more aggressive than both of those two GMs combined and I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

 

[dll2000]

I forgot about Miller too.

He traded up for him as well.  

[soulman]

4 hours ago, dll2000 said:

He traded up for Floyd, Kwit, Trubisky, E. Jackson, Montgomery and Gipson.   Not sure that is winning more often than not.  I would say no.   

Bust, ILB that hardly played, Bust, Good trade, RB who are devalued, remains to be seen.   That is two first round bust trades which weigh heavier.   

Aw come on......gimme a break here will ya'?

Floyd was not a bust.  For whatever reason or reasons he was not the edge rusher for us that we wanted but sure as hell he's had no problem fulfilling that role in LA.  In four years as a Bear he had 18.5 sacks.  In 1.5 years in LA he already has 18.0 sacks.  He's also averaging more QB hits and TFL per game than he did in Chicago.  I'd call it more of one more example of failing to develop a player to his optimal potential.

You can argue with me all you like but IMHO keeping DT over Kwit was a huge mistake based solely on DT's intangibles which have done us little good based on how many games he's missed and poor play even when he has been healthy.  At the very least a 100% healthy Kwit was playing at least as well as a 100% healthy DT was playing and he's significantly younger while DT's contract has become an albatross around our neck.

Trubisky was a mistake we've paid for many times over yet he isn't without talent.  IMHO he was a poor fit for Nagy's schemes but then is any QB a fit for Nagy's schemes?  But fine......I'll give you this one anyway.

EJax has played at an All Pro level under Fangio and although he's been used differently under Pagano and Desai as well his value in the secondary is still undeniable as evidenced by our struggles in pass defense when he's been out with an injury.  Plus the guy is a 4th round pick!  High value.

Monty has proven to have been a good trade.  He's a beast RB.

Gipson has shown signs of progress as an edge rusher but playing behind Mack his opportunities have been more limited.

Miller looked like a great pick as a rookie and then he tanked.  Why?  Since two others have also released him my guess is it's his attitude more so than his ability.  But he did fail so I'll give you this one as well.

I score 5 trades that were worth  making vs 2 that were not worth making based on their overall NFL history.

Edited November 19, 2021 by soulman

[JAF-N72EX]

On 11/17/2021 at 8:38 AM, dll2000 said:

And when Dline stinks or is injured Roquan isn’t very good.

This is not true at all. You may want it to be true so that it supports your claim but it's not lol.

On 11/17/2021 at 8:38 AM, dll2000 said:

Bush is a high pick everyone would theoretically want.

But you were saying a good DL can make ILBs look good and Bush has a good DL but he has still played bad. Just like the Rams....good DL....bad ILBs.

Sorry man but this theory of yours just doesn't hold water.

9 hours ago, dll2000 said:

S Fitzpatrick at 11.

Did you watch the Lions game last week when he was, not only juked out of his dead great grandparents shoes by a practice squad running back, but also folded up like a lawn chair in the process?

Bears fans piss and moan if a defender doesn't make a tackle from the other side of the field. One single play like that here and Bears fan would be losing their minds talking about "why did they extend this guy?"......."they should've taken Roquan or some other prospect"....etc. 

 

 

9 hours ago, dll2000 said:

CB J. Alexander at 18 (the best hindsight pick)

We didn't need a corner in 2018. Fuller and Prince were just fine.

Also,
Roquan = 1x All Pro (2020)
Jaire = 1x All Pro (2020)

And the real kicker here....Jaire hasn't played since the Q2 of week 4 and the Packers defense have actually been better without him. Both eye test and metrics support this. Packers were 20th in pass defense and 23rd overall thru 4 weeks with Jaire, and are now 8th in pass defense and 11th overall without him.

You guys would've be punting babies all over the room right now if we would've reached for Jaire.

Edited November 19, 2021 by JAF-N72EX

[JAF-N72EX]

7 hours ago, soulman said:

Decidedly a BPA pick that year and it's paid off so I won't ding Pace for this pick.  We should also consider the fact that MLB/ILB is also a traditionally strong position for any Bears team and those teams who have not had one were not all that good.  Roquan has earned a nice extension.

We caught a glimpse of how important Urlacher was when he got injured week 1 in 2009 and missed the season. Hunter filled in at MLB and the defense took a nose-dive.

2008: Top-7 w/ Urlacher
2009: Bottom 10 w/o Urlacher
2010: Top-3 w/ Urlacher

It's clear who the missing link was. Same with Ray Lewis....take him away from those Ravens defenses and you most likely get the a similar drop.

I get the importance of having a strong DL/OL  (the game starts in the trenches on both sides) but acting like ILB is just so insignificant is not true either.

If any GM can get a all-pro player who is both reliable and consistent like ROquan has then it was worth it. "Reliable" and "consistent" are the operative words here. Roquan has missed 9 games his entire career (only 4 due to injury).

This is why comparing an ILB to a RB to such a horrible comparison. RB's are generally 5'9 to 6'2 and only weigh about 180-220 and they're taking roughly 250-400 hits a season from 300 lb defensive lineman and 250lb+ linebackers. That's ALOT of wear and tear on a smaller body which is why their shelf-life is so short. By comparison, most ILBs are 6'2-'6'4 and weigh 250 and are not taking nearly as many hits from guys with nearly twice the amount of weight mass as them. Hell alot of times in today's passing league....they're just running around in man-coverage or waiting for a play to be made close their zone.

Edited November 19, 2021 by JAF-N72EX

[abstract_thought]

14 hours ago, soulman said:

I score 5 trades that were worth  making vs 2 that were not worth making based on their overall NFL history.

I’d say Pace’s biggest draft failure is not getting enough value out of his 4 top 10 picks. Trading up too often is a problem too, but figuring that out requires a lot of speculation.

Still, a lot of these guys like Kwit, Miller, Gipson are no better than others drafted in the same round. Even Montgomery, who I view as a great pick, was selected near several other good RBs like Harris, Mattison, and Singletary. I think people often underestimate how much talent is available in those middle rounds.

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

13 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

 

Did you watch the Lions game last week when he was, not only juked out of his dead great grandparents shoes by a practice squad running back, but also folded up like a lawn chair in the process?

 

 

We gots ours William Safires, here folks, got de analysis and also de similes and de hyperboles.  

 

To actually address your point on RB vs ILB,  not saying they have the exact profile, and your're right the odometer on the RB runs out faster, but it seems like the difference between an average RB/ILB and a great one makes less difference than the more premium positions, especially on a team where those positions might be lacking.  

[dll2000]

13 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

This is not true at all. You may want it to be true so that it supports your claim but it's not lol.

Why would I want it to be true? LOL.   Roquan doesn't take on blocks well.   Not because he isn't a good player, but because he is small.   That isn't wishful thinking on my part.  That just is.   That is true of most ILBs, but some more than others.   The OL are bigger, stronger humans.  

But you were saying a good DL can make ILBs look good and Bush has a good DL but he has still played bad. Just like the Rams....good DL....bad ILBs.

I am saying Bush would be drafted in first round in any draft and doesn't really move the needle, and I believe he was good before he got an ACL or something.  I am not saying ILBS are worthless.   I am saying they are worth less.   A good player anywhere helps.   A really good player helps more.  But not every position is equal in importance and impact and some positions are more dependent on others.

WRs are QB dependent.

RBs are OL dependent.

OL and QB are mutually dependent. 

ILBs are dependent on their DL.   

 

13 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

be punting babies all over the room right now if we would've reached for Jaire.

I would take Jaire any day and all day even if he stunk from this point forward and had to be cut.   He has been great at a pivotal position.   One of best in league.

 

[soulman]

7 hours ago, abstract_thought said:

I’d say Pace’s biggest draft failure is not getting enough value out of his 4 top 10 picks. Trading up too often is a problem too, but figuring that out requires a lot of speculation.

Still, a lot of these guys like Kwit, Miller, Gipson are no better than others drafted in the same round. Even Montgomery, who I view as a great pick, was selected near several other good RBs like Harris, Mattison, and Singletary. I think people often underestimate how much talent is available in those middle rounds.

OK let's take those 4 top ten picks.  White was complete NFL bust.  We can all agree on that.  He was a mistake made by reaching based on a perceived need for a top #1 WR.  White isn't one.  Floyd is a good NFL player.  LA has allowed him to be an edge rusher whereas we used him differently yet he wasn't a bust.  So who got or is getting more value from Floyd?  It depends on whatever expectations we had for him vs those LA has had for him. 

Mitch was over drafted, no one will dispute that.  Will he become a top level NFL starting QB?  I don't know.  But one thing for certain is he's shown poor value for a #2 overall pick.  So no dispute here.  Roquan Smith?  Are you honestly saying we aren't getting full value for a guy whose playing ILB at an All Pro level?  Come one brother.  Smith is living proof that Pace's drafting has improved.  He was definitely the BPA on the board when our pick came up.

I'm not defending Pace against his errors but I do insist we deal in facts.  Of his 4 top ten pick only White was a total bust.  It wouldn't be a stretch to now say that Floyd was either poorly coached or simply used in a manner that precluded his being a top edge rusher.  How might Mitch have faired under different coaching?  We don't know right now but what we do know is the guy who was hired to make a franchise QB out of him failed and is about to lose his job as Bears HC as well.  Smith was a big time score.

 

No better doesn't mean they aren't NFL caliber talent.  At one point or another they've all shown that kind of ability.  Montgomery is a good RB and IMHO the type of back we needed for this team.  Might others have worked out just as well?  Possibly, but we didn't draft them we drafted Monty.

And yes, there's all kinds of NFL level talent in those middle rounds.  Rosters are full of those guys.  They're often your core players.  They're the guys who make it possible for your all stars to become all stars.  They're the perfect backup band for a hot vocalist.  You need those types too.

 

Has Pace trade up too often and spent more than he should have? Maybe.

But if there's only one team ahead of you willing to swap picks and make a trade the laws of supply and demand tend to govern that.  Of course you're gonna try to negotiate a fair deal but more often than not you'll over pay by a little or sometimes by a lot.  So how badly do you want your guy?  With Mitch we obviously over paid.  With Fields it's looking like we may have gotten the bargain of the decade.

Was the trade for Mack a bad one?  I don't think so or at least not based upon what was believed at that time.  Pace believed Nagy was finally gonna break through with Mitch and that with Mack in that defense we had an honest shot at an extended playoff run and maybe a SB.  But Nagy failed to follow through with Mitch as we are where we are now.  I'm just saying all things are not on Pace and his trades.

 

[JAF-N72EX]

15 hours ago, dll2000 said:

Roquan doesn't take on blocks well.   Not because he isn't a good player, but because he is small.   That isn't wishful thinking on my part.  That just is.   That is true of most ILBs, but some more than others.   The OL are bigger, stronger humans.  

See man.... you keep on just throwing out statements like the highlighted above that are just not true lol. What makes you think Roquan doesn't take on blocks well?

The only part about this post that is true is that most ILBers are smaller ---and there's a reason for that (they need to have more range to cover more ground without sacrificing strength/speed thru weight gain ---think Urlacher who was a converted safety in college).

Bigger, stronger OL? What are you talking about lol?  We're talking about inside linebackers here? You're acting like they only take on OLlineman when ILBers rarely blitz unless their designed man (RB/TE) stays home to block and that usually only happens in man coverage.

In most cases when ILbs are rushing the QB they are often rushing the B and C gaps and taking on TE's and RBs (because that it also their gap responsibility too) to stop the ILB from running free at the QB. So the OL being bigger and stronger makes little difference here except on stretch run plays or against a heavy power scheme. (but those plays are often designed to negate the good players inside while also exposing exterior defenders (i.e bad CB or NB, overly aggressive edge players, etc). Which Roquan has also been VERY good at and I could also provide stats that back this up too.

Think about the scheme and responsibilities from both the offense and defense. In most schemes, ILBers are not just taking on OLineman (and I touched on it a bit earlier in this thread on why Roquan would fit best at different positions in certain schemes and why they dont take as many hits as RBs).

In zone coverage concepts, against the pass, ILBers rarely blitz and are mostly used in coverage to protect the middle of the field or between the seams and take away targets who enter their zone (mainly TE/RB's).  The only time they time blitz off the snap are in disguised coverages in which a DE will act like he's blitzing but break off in coverage and the ILB will take his place as the extra rusher.  So there is no need for them to ever being in a situation to take on OLineman.

Here's an example

 

^^Notice how the DE breaks off into coverage and Kenny Young takes his place as a pass rusher at full speed and rushes the B-gap and Monty just gids his feet into the ground and stands him up one-on-one and Whitehair comes in to play clean up. Kenny Young was traded after this.

 

In man coverage concepts, each of the ILBers have a responsibility based on what the TE and/or RB does on single play. If a ILB sees a RB/TE staying home to block then they their responsibility is to rush the QB). The only time they blitz is when they are being used as what's called a "green dog" (a linebacker who has the option to blitz based on what the Te/RB does).

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by JAF-N72EX

[JAF-N72EX]

10 hours ago, soulman said:

OK let's take those 4 top ten picks.  White was complete NFL bust. 

 

10 hours ago, soulman said:

I'm not defending Pace against his errors but I do insist we deal in facts.  Of his 4 top ten pick only White was a total bust.

It's also worth noting that White was seen as a sure pick at the time with no injury history and the only reason he got injured in the offseason in the first place was because he was working himself too hard. Him becoming injury prone was strictly bad luck and I'm never putting bad luck on any GM.

 

[JAF-N72EX]

16 hours ago, RunningVaccs said:

We gots ours William Safires, here folks, got de analysis and also de similes and de hyperboles.  

 

To actually address your point on RB vs ILB,  not saying they have the exact profile, and your're right the odometer on the RB runs out faster, but it seems like the difference between an average RB/ILB and a great one makes less difference than the more premium positions, especially on a team where those positions might be lacking.  

RB vs ILB are not even close to being comparable. Are there more important positions than ILB or RB......sure. But most RBs in this pass era can be had in late rounds while a very good ILB will last alot longer and have a better payoff in the end (see Lavonte David who is a vet and just helped the Bucs win a SB).

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by JAF-N72EX

[soulman]

4 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

It's also worth noting that White was seen as a sure pick at the time with no injury history and the only reason he got injured in the offseason in the first place was because he was working himself too hard. Him becoming injury prone was strictly bad luck and I'm never putting bad luck on any GM.

 

By now it's obvious that whatever the NFL in general may have thought about White pre-draft they were all woefully overrating him.

[abstract_thought]

On 11/19/2021 at 4:37 PM, soulman said:

I'm not defending Pace against his errors but I do insist we deal in facts.  Of his 4 top ten pick only White was a total bust.

Mitch was an outright bust. Floyd is a good player but never played like a top 10 pick. The only guy who didn't disappoint was Roquan.