The Ftont office or the coaches?

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 hour ago, ditchdigger said:

Tin foil hat time.

I think Hue pulled rank and was the driver of the negotiations with Cincy through backdoor channels, and submitted an offer that the front office nixed at 3:55.

If that is even remotely true, it is in and of itself is a fireable offense.

I'll admit the whole situation reeks of desperation and that's been Hue's scent of late, much more so than the front office.

[big poppa pump]

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to have continuity.  It makes sense to want a stable environment.  For that reason alone I am willing to watch this entire regime get one more year.  I just feel like it will be a complete fail regardless.

The FO has shown very little in the way of building a franchise.  Tearing down the entire structure to put a bunch of 20 somethings out there, was a ludicrous plan from the start. Yayyyyyy we are young.  Big deal....We still suck. 

Franchises need to find a balance of vets and rookies to blend together cohesively.  This regime is definitely suffering from the missteps of previous regimes.  However, they have also made some glaring mistakes.

We have had the number 2 and the number 1 pick in the last two drafts.  They did not identify a QB at the top of either draft that they were willing to move forward with.  It has since been shown (albeit a small sample size) that there ARE QB's that fit the bill.  If the plan was to tank for 3 years, and then secure the number 1 overall pick in the 3rd year, where they would then take a QB????   Well then...they are on their way to success.  This, however, makes zero sense.

 

The issue with phone calls, and paperwork, and whatever else they screwed up yesterday is just icing on the cake.

 

Hue has also been a problem.  He has coached this team poorly, even with the little, and young talent that he has.

 

I have stated already that if we choose to keep everyone together...well ok...but there would have to be a giant leap next year.  The lack of improvement has been unacceptable.

[ditchdigger]

28 minutes ago, dawgdish said:

I'm in favor of giving all another year to see if this rebuild starts to bear fruit, as it clearly wasn't a 2 year plan, but with adding someone on the football/personnel side of the F.O. and giving them final say over the roster and keeping Sashi on the business side where he (marginally) belongs

There is no way this coach and front office can continue to coexist after this debacle. 

[Dogbite]

If we had to get rid of one side or the other I would vote to fire Hue. The front office has done more good than Hue by a long shot. Hue can piss and moan all he wants about a young roster but it is also his and the coaching staff's job to develop talent. I believe they have done a miserable job developing anyone on the field. You could have the Top 5 picks in every draft for a decade and still have a bad team if the coaches cannot develop that talent because no college kid comes out a fully polished NFL player not even close.

[ditchdigger]

18 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I'll admit the whole situation reeks of desperation and that's been Hue's scent of late, much more so than the front office.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

24 minutes ago, big poppa pump said:

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to have continuity.  It makes sense to want a stable environment.  For that reason alone I am willing to watch this entire regime get one more year.  I just feel like it will be a complete fail regardless.

The FO has shown very little in the way of building a franchise.  Tearing down the entire structure to put a bunch of 20 somethings out there, was a ludicrous plan from the start. Yayyyyyy we are young.  Big deal....We still suck. 

Franchises need to find a balance of vets and rookies to blend together cohesively.  This regime is definitely suffering from the missteps of previous regimes.  However, they have also made some glaring mistakes.

We have had the number 2 and the number 1 pick in the last two drafts.  They did not identify a QB at the top of either draft that they were willing to move forward with.  It has since been shown (albeit a small sample size) that there ARE QB's that fit the bill.  If the plan was to tank for 3 years, and then secure the number 1 overall pick in the 3rd year, where they would then take a QB????   Well then...they are on their way to success.  This, however, makes zero sense.

 

The issue with phone calls, and paperwork, and whatever else they screwed up yesterday is just icing on the cake.

 

Hue has also been a problem.  He has coached this team poorly, even with the little, and young talent that he has.

 

I have stated already that if we choose to keep everyone together...well ok...but their would have to be a giant leap next year.  The lack of improvement has been unacceptable.

What's a giant leap next year if Sam Darnold or whoever is the QB?

And yeah, they've made mistakes, every front office does.  The issue for them is there is no leeway, no acknowledgement that such things will happen with every front office. They aren't, and never were, going to hit on every pick and never make mistakes.

[big poppa pump]

Just now, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

What's a giant leap next year if Sam Darnold or whoever is the QB?

And yeah, they've made mistakes, every front office does.  The issue for them is there is no leeway, no acknowledgement that such things will happen with every front office. They aren't, and never were, going to hit on every pick and never make mistakes.

The mistakes aren't just the picks they have made.  It's the one's they haven't.  There were moves to be made to upgrade this team at the trade deadline.  They didn't.  We have zero WR's and Kelvin Benjamin was traded for pennies.  Yes every team makes mistakes.  Our lack of getting a QB, however, is not forgivable.  What if they pass on a QB for Barkley???  Are you still cool with the plan?

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

5 minutes ago, Dogbite said:

If we had to get rid of one side or the other I would vote to fire Hue. The front office has done more good than Hue by a long shot. Hue can piss and moan all he wants about a young roster but it is also his and the coaching staff's job to develop talent. I believe they have done a miserable job developing anyone on the field. You could have the Top 5 picks in every draft for a decade and still have a bad team if the coaches cannot develop that talent because no college kid comes out a fully polished NFL player not even close.

As far as developing the talent, 8 weeks isn't enough time for them to really develop a player, is it?

Some of the second year guys HAVE developed. Shon Coleman, Schobert, DeValve, etc all have improved, in some cases significantly, from last season.

We haven't really seen enough of Corey Coleman to make any concrete determination, but he looked sharp this preseason.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

3 minutes ago, big poppa pump said:

The mistakes aren't just the picks they have made.  It's the one's they haven't.  There were moves to be made to upgrade this team at the trade deadline.  They didn't.  We have zero WR's and Kelvin Benjamin was traded for pennies.  Yes every team makes mistakes.  Our lack of getting a QB, however, is not forgivable.  What if they pass on a QB for Barkley???  Are you still cool with the plan?

Kelvin Benjamin?  A WR with suspect hands in need of an extension? He was average with a former MVP throwing him the ball, what do you think he'd have done here?

If they pass on the top shelf QB's again, we'll have to see.  I won't like it and, by year 3, they will need to show something. 

I'm not expecting that though.  This tank seems destined to end with a qbotf at the top of the draft. 

[CBrownsman]

Its really funny to me that people are both arguing "tanking doesn't work in the NFL like it does in the NBA because of the single player importance and roster size" and "The QB position is the most important position on the field, why have we not fixed it yet?!"

I would like everyone to keep in mind that when this front office took this team over, we had 15 million dollars in cap space.  Our WR's were Dwayne Bowe, Brian Heartline, Travis Benjamin and Andrew Hawkins (Bowe and Heartline are both out of the league now).  Our QB was Johnny Manziel and Josh McCown. This is what our defense looked liked, aside from Danny Shelton,  Joe Haden, and Tashawn Gibson, the players on our Defense were either past their prime in Paul Kruger, Tremon Williams, Desmond Bryant, Randy Starks, Donte Whitner, and Karlos Dansby, or young and either oft injured, or wouldn't amount to starters in the NFL like Craig Robertson, Barkevious Mingo, Kauwan Williams. and Justin Gilbert.

Today our starting Offensive line is made up of Joe Thomas, 26 year old Joel Bitonio, 26 Year old JC Tretter, 27 Year old Kevin Zeitler, and 25 year old Shon Coleman.

Our starting Defensive line is made up of 21 Year old Myles Garrett, 24 Year old Danny Shelton, 23 Year old Tevin Coley (or 23 Year old Larry Ogonjobi) and 23 Year old Emmanual Ogbah.

Our starting Linebackers are 25 year old Christian Kirksey, 28 Year old Jamie Collins, and 23 year old Joe Schobert.

Didn't everyone say the first thing we need to do is build a good offensive line to protect a young QB and fix the defensive front 7 (BTW has anyone else noticed that with only 2.9 yards per attempt we are the best defense against the rush in the NFL?)

Yeah, it sucks, were not winning games, but its not because there is zero talent on this team, its because the offensive weapons are limited and our QB play has been garbage.  Every time we get into the redzone we throw a pick and the D has to come right back on the field and try and stop their offense again.  Our team has a good amount of talent, and ALL of that talent is young and under affordable contract for a long time. 

Oh yeah, did I forget to mention that we are going to have somewhere on range of 120 million dollars in cap space and probably 6 picks virtually in the first two rounds of this upcomming NFL draft? (first pick in the 3rd round is how i got virtually 6) INCLUDING THE FIRST OVERALL PICK, in a draft that people have been talking about QB's like Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Lamar Jackson for YEARS!

We could sign Kirk Cousins and Draft Saquan Barkley and Calvin Ridley and then sign Alshawn Jefferies or Allen Robinson, or Jarvis Laundry, or Sammy Watkins.

We could Draft Sam Darnold, or Josh Rosen, and draft Cameron Sutton and Derious Juice or Nick Chubb, sign an afforementioned WR and Laveon Bell.

All the while drafing more defensive back help to put our defense in great position for future success.

So my question is how impatient are we?!?!?!?!  We knew we were going to be bad, would being 4-12 or 5-11 bad and not having the first overall pick REALLY be better than being 1-15 bad? We are FINALLY not throwing any piece of crap at the QB room and hoping something sticks.  Playing someone else's scraps like Bryan Hoyer, Josh McCown, Robert Griffin III, Derek Anderson, or signing Matt Garcia, or Trent Dilfer, or drafting second tier QB's like Charlie Frye, Johnny Manziel, Brandon Weeden, Brady Quinn, Deshawn Kizer.  Were not trading away draft picks or signing someone stupid JUST to try and win a useless game or two!  We are bad, we knew we were going to be going through 2 years of bad, and we are still getting pissed about it.

I've been reading that Jimmy Haslem stepped in yesterday and were telling the front office they had to trade for McCarron even though they thought it was a bad idea, and maybe they were insubordinate and did this on purpose, but darnitJimmy, you said you would be patient too!!!  Sign Cousins or draft the guy you want next year.  Draft and sign a couple weapons and pieces that will fit in with our already young and strong foundation.

But can we PELASE stop trying to fire everyone, start the process over, and remain the crap we have been for years?!?!  Can we stop being the same old browns? because we are NOT right now, we are doing something no one has done in the NFL to date, and it seems like it might work, but we fire everyone, we're back to being us, back to square 1, and back to tearing down another roster because its not their guys....

BE PATIENT

[Dogbite]

None of those guys have taken a big enough leap. Ogbah, Nassib, and Kessler having made enough strides. 8 weeks is plenty enough time to start getting something out of your rookies. It doesn't have to be pro bowl play but it can be better than what it has been.

I just feel like the talent we do have is not put in good spots to succeed. We don't throw near enough to Njoku who has proven to be productive when thrown too. We abandon the run game early even when we are still well within reach of game or even leading. Abandoning the run game is hurting the Oline, and all three QBs that Hue Jackson is trying his best to ruin.

Actually I feel we have seen enough of Corey Coleman and I feel it is a good thing. I believe one he gets his hand fixed right this time that he is going to be a force in the NFL. He has been great more than a few times even without being on the field consistently. No receiver in the NFL is a week in and week out threat for 100 yards not even Antonio Brown. I believe once he is on the field for 16 games Corey Coleman is going to be very good.

 

I didn't say I wanted to fire Hue Jackson. I said if I had to choose between the two sides I would keep the Front Office. I believe the guys on the roster who do show a lot of promise and talent were because of the front office. I believe they have done a much better job than Hue Jackson has at this point. That is all. I would like to give everyone at least one more season with the expectations of winning 4-5 games in year 3. If they do that then give them year 4 with the expectations of winning 7 to 9 games.

[Dogbite]

2 minutes ago, CBrownsman said:

Its really funny to me that people are both arguing "tanking doesn't work in the NFL like it does in the NBA because of the single player importance and roster size" and "The QB position is the most important position on the field, why have we not fixed it yet?!"

I would like everyone to keep in mind that when this front office took this team over, we had 15 million dollars in cap space.  Our WR's were Dwayne Bowe, Brian Heartline, Travis Benjamin and Andrew Hawkins (Bowe and Heartline are both out of the league now).  Our QB was Johnny Manziel and Josh McCown. This is what our defense looked liked, aside from Danny Shelton,  Joe Haden, and Tashawn Gibson, the players on our Defense were either past their prime in Paul Kruger, Tremon Williams, Desmond Bryant, Randy Starks, Donte Whitner, and Karlos Dansby, or young and either oft injured, or wouldn't amount to starters in the NFL like Craig Robertson, Barkevious Mingo, Kauwan Williams. and Justin Gilbert.

Today our starting Offensive line is made up of Joe Thomas, 26 year old Joel Bitonio, 26 Year old JC Tretter, 27 Year old Kevin Zeitler, and 25 year old Shon Coleman.

Our starting Defensive line is made up of 21 Year old Myles Garrett, 24 Year old Danny Shelton, 23 Year old Tevin Coley (or 23 Year old Larry Ogonjobi) and 23 Year old Emmanual Ogbah.

Our starting Linebackers are 25 year old Christian Kirksey, 28 Year old Jamie Collins, and 23 year old Joe Schobert.

Didn't everyone say the first thing we need to do is build a good offensive line to protect a young QB and fix the defensive front 7 (BTW has anyone else noticed that with only 2.9 yards per attempt we are the best defense against the rush in the NFL?)

Yeah, it sucks, were not winning games, but its not because there is zero talent on this team, its because the offensive weapons are limited and our QB play has been garbage.  Every time we get into the redzone we throw a pick and the D has to come right back on the field and try and stop their offense again.  Our team has a good amount of talent, and ALL of that talent is young and under affordable contract for a long time. 

Oh yeah, did I forget to mention that we are going to have somewhere on range of 120 million dollars in cap space and probably 6 picks virtually in the first two rounds of this upcomming NFL draft? (first pick in the 3rd round is how i got virtually 6) INCLUDING THE FIRST OVERALL PICK, in a draft that people have been talking about QB's like Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Lamar Jackson for YEARS!

We could sign Kirk Cousins and Draft Saquan Barkley and Calvin Ridley and then sign Alshawn Jefferies or Allen Robinson, or Jarvis Laundry, or Sammy Watkins.

We could Draft Sam Darnold, or Josh Rosen, and draft Cameron Sutton and Derious Juice or Nick Chubb, sign an afforementioned WR and Laveon Bell.

All the while drafing more defensive back help to put our defense in great position for future success.

So my question is how impatient are we?!?!?!?!  We knew we were going to be bad, would being 4-12 or 5-11 bad and not having the first overall pick REALLY be better than being 1-15 bad? We are FINALLY not throwing any piece of crap at the QB room and hoping something sticks.  Playing someone else's scraps like Bryan Hoyer, Josh McCown, Robert Griffin III, Derek Anderson, or signing Matt Garcia, or Trent Dilfer, or drafting second tier QB's like Charlie Frye, Johnny Manziel, Brandon Weeden, Brady Quinn, Deshawn Kizer.  Were not trading away draft picks or signing someone stupid JUST to try and win a useless game or two!  We are bad, we knew we were going to be going through 2 years of bad, and we are still getting pissed about it.

I've been reading that Jimmy Haslem stepped in yesterday and were telling the front office they had to trade for McCarron even though they thought it was a bad idea, and maybe they were insubordinate and did this on purpose, but darnitJimmy, you said you would be patient too!!!  Sign Cousins or draft the guy you want next year.  Draft and sign a couple weapons and pieces that will fit in with our already young and strong foundation.

But can we PELASE stop trying to fire everyone, start the process over, and remain the crap we have been for years?!?!  Can we stop being the same old browns? because we are NOT right now, we are doing something no one has done in the NFL to date, and it seems like it might work, but we fire everyone, we're back to being us, back to square 1, and back to tearing down another roster because its not their guys....

BE PATIENT

Amen Brother.

[MWil23]

It's very apparent to me after yesterday (by the way, how GREAT is it that the horrific trade didn't go through...seriously, what a potential disaster) that EITHER Hue OR Sashi/DePo (if not both) have to go. They aren't reading the same book, let alone on the same page.

Usually I don't fire a GM/President and keep the head coach, because it breaks the "chain of command" structure and causes just as much if not more confusion, like when we hired Farmer AFTER hiring Pettine.

I personally think that this reeks of Hue panicking due to losses and using backdoor channels to try to make things happen after 2 years of losing frustration has piled up and his GM and President weren't even in the building the night a bunch of major trades went down like Garapollo. 

[CBrownsman]

19 minutes ago, big poppa pump said:

The mistakes aren't just the picks they have made.  It's the one's they haven't.  There were moves to be made to upgrade this team at the trade deadline.  They didn't.  We have zero WR's and Kelvin Benjamin was traded for pennies.  Yes every team makes mistakes.  Our lack of getting a QB, however, is not forgivable.  What if they pass on a QB for Barkley???  Are you still cool with the plan?

Do you think Watson or Wentz would be good with our line last year or with our weapons this year?  Wentz has the best line in the NFL, a proven TE and a decent receiving core.  Watson has Hopkins, and Fuller, getting open all over the field.  If the plan was the build the lines and the defensive front seven first, and then get play makers and a QB, why are we mad that we are passing on literally any QB that people see is available...in fact we have used those picks to build the lines and the front 7 and starting to put together the weapons...

This FO seems to believe the QB is the last thing you add to the puzzle, I hope they get a chance to do it....

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

2 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

It's very apparent to me after yesterday (by the way, how GREAT is it that the horrific trade didn't go through...seriously, what a potential disaster) that EITHER Hue OR Sashi/DePo (if not both) have to go. They aren't reading the same book, let alone on the same page.

Usually I don't fire a GM/President and keep the head coach, because it breaks the "chain of command" structure and causes just as much if not more confusion, like when we hired Farmer AFTER hiring Pettine.

I personally think that this reeks of Hue panicking due to losses and using backdoor channels to try to make things happen after 2 years of losing frustration has piled up and his GM and President weren't even in the building the night a bunch of major trades went down like Garapollo. 

If Hue is that desperate, isn't it the owners job to settle him?

If everyone is as committed and understanding as they say, that shouldn't be an issue.  Is Hue still desperate if Haslam guarantees publically that he's back next year?

IF this is the case, its ownership's fault, not Hue's for wanting to save his job and reputation or Sashi's for wanting to stay on course.