Talent Acquisition and Separation

[onejayhawk]

2 hours ago, RedGold said:

All but 3 of those are role players, that can be brought along slowly over the course of the year.   Why are we not in a position to build the middle of the roster?  It’s been avoided for 3+ years.   We don’t need all these guys to be contributing as starters, but they can be groomed in a reserve role.  

When you say role players, how do you think most rookies are used? Again, one immediate starter per draft is the norm. Half the rookies that make rosters spend the season with more ST snaps than scrimmage snaps. Veterans at least know how things are done and what is expected. 

If we were building from the ground up, then go for all eight picks. Since we are working from foundation pieces, fewer players with greater individual impact is the way to go. It's also the way Veach has gone in the past.

J

[RedGold]

20 minutes ago, onejayhawk said:

When you say role players, how do you think most rookies are used? Again, one immediate starter per draft is the norm. Half the rookies that make rosters spend the season with more ST snaps than scrimmage snaps. Veterans at least know how things are done and what is expected. 

If we were building from the ground up, then go for all eight picks. Since we are working from foundation pieces, fewer players with greater individual impact is the way to go. It's also the way Veach has gone in the past.

J

I'm alright if they spend most of the year on ST's.   I don't expect a rookie to come in and be a game changer,  especially with where our draft picks lie.      The perfect scenario for a Day1/Day2 rookie for me, is Nick Bolton,.    He wasn't a starter much of the year, but the coaching staff was getting him on the field just as much in certain packages.         I'm NOT expecting every rookie to produce at what Bolton did,   just how the whole process of developing him throughout the year is what I'm talking about.        So yeah,   if we take a Rookie WR..  I don't give a dang if he's listed in the starting lineup.. I want him being tossed into certain game situations and being groomed for a future role.   Same for Edge/DT/CB...  We might bring a veteran in,   but I want a rookie being brought in right behind him.    

RB
WR
T
IOL
Edge
DT
LB
CB
S

Are all areas that look rough in 2023..  I'd just prefer to find as many guys at these spots,  that could be a multiple year solution down the line.      That's not me saying I expect to hit on over 50% of our draft picks as starters.   Though Veach typically is a good drafter.

Definitely agree it's the way Veach has gone in the past,       I am just hoping that he realized stacking the top of the roster is tough to keep together.     

tbf though,  I wasn't complaining.  This has been by far my favorite offseason under Veach.    Sign lower level guys that we don't have to reset the market for them to come.  

 

[KC_Guy]

11 minutes ago, RedGold said:

I'm alright if they spend most of the year on ST's.   I don't expect a rookie to come in and be a game changer,  especially with where our draft picks lie.      The perfect scenario for a Day1/Day2 rookie for me, is Nick Bolton,.    He wasn't a starter much of the year, but the coaching staff was getting him on the field just as much in certain packages.         I'm NOT expecting every rookie to produce at what Bolton did,   just how the whole process of developing him throughout the year is what I'm talking about.        So yeah,   if we take a Rookie WR..  I don't give a dang if he's listed in the starting lineup.. I want him being tossed into certain game situations and being groomed for a future role.   Same for Edge/DT/CB...  We might bring a veteran in,   but I want a rookie being brought in right behind him.    

RB
WR
T
IOL
Edge
DT
LB
CB
S

Are all areas that look rough in 2023..  I'd just prefer to find as many guys at these spots,  that could be a multiple year solution down the line.      That's not me saying I expect to hit on over 50% of our draft picks as starters.   Though Veach typically is a good drafter.

Definitely agree it's the way Veach has gone in the past,       I am just hoping that he realized stacking the top of the roster is tough to keep together.     

tbf though,  I wasn't complaining.  This has been by far my favorite offseason under Veach.    Sign lower level guys that we don't have to reset the market for them to come.  

 

What you are saying is  .. there are issues across the board at ALL positions other than QB, TE, and ST NEXT year  ...

Would you please come up with some solutions? Or at least ideas how to handle them not forgetting a season has to be played before?

[RedGold]

25 minutes ago, KC_Guy said:

What you are saying is  .. there are issues across the board at ALL positions other than QB, TE, and ST NEXT year  ...

Would you please come up with some solutions? Or at least ideas how to handle them not forgetting a season has to be played before?

I'll do anything for KC_Guy.      Been hung up this offseason a bit.   I'll do a break down of where I think we should put of assets between the O and D  early this week.     

Tbf OneJay,   I don't think we use all our 7th's.    I think we could definitely use keeping 10/11 from a roster standpoint though.

 

[EMAW_KSU]

1 hour ago, onejayhawk said:

When you say role players, how do you think most rookies are used? Again, one immediate starter per draft is the norm. Half the rookies that make rosters spend the season with more ST snaps than scrimmage snaps. Veterans at least know how things are done and what is expected. 

If we were building from the ground up, then go for all eight picks. Since we are working from foundation pieces, fewer players with greater individual impact is the way to go. It's also the way Veach has gone in the past.

J

It’s also part of the reason we lacked some depth And overall quality at important positions.  I’m not saying we do, don’t, should, shouldn’t move around the draft board because none of us knows what’s going to happen other than if we pick a QB round 1 we’re all going to be totally blindsided.

 All I’m saying is we have picks to put going contacts and talent on a team that has cleared some age and refilled depth with single season contacts.  If it costs late round picks to move up a couple, sure why not, but once we talk about premium picks and or multiple picks before round 4…

Bottom line I’d love to see us make our 1s-3s and actually get a look in what Veach come through with.

[Jakuvious]

9 hours ago, Chiefer said:

The more I hear about RoJo the more i feel lime he doesnt fit

cant catch, cant block, needs carries to get into a groove.

hes like a taller version of Clyde 😂

I imagine Ronald Jones winds up being used the way Darrel Williams was originally projected, as a straight line runner on power runs and short yardage. Williams kind of turned into our receiving back with CEH's injuries, but I think we all originally saw CEH is the receiver/blocker, with Darrel being the short yardage guy and straight ahead runner. So I imagine the rotation going back to what we originally expected when we drafted CEH.

And that setup has occurred before under Reid. Knile Davis never justified taking passing snaps from Charles. Bryce Brown and Ronnie Brown behind LeSean McCoy. Correll Buckhalter and Dorsey Levens behind Brian Westbrook. Guys who took a decent amount of rushing snaps, but basically no receiving snaps from the starter.

[Chiefer]

35 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

I imagine Ronald Jones winds up being used the way Darrel Williams was originally projected, as a straight line runner on power runs and short yardage. Williams kind of turned into our receiving back with CEH's injuries, but I think we all originally saw CEH is the receiver/blocker, with Darrel being the short yardage guy and straight ahead runner. So I imagine the rotation going back to what we originally expected when we drafted CEH.

And that setup has occurred before under Reid. Knile Davis never justified taking passing snaps from Charles. Bryce Brown and Ronnie Brown behind LeSean McCoy. Correll Buckhalter and Dorsey Levens behind Brian Westbrook. Guys who took a decent amount of rushing snaps, but basically no receiving snaps from the starter.

My issue is Clyde is a very small target out there with no speed, so hes easily covered up. And hes not very good at pass blocking. Which i think is why Mahomes has leaned on Williams, a larger target that can pass block. Plus Williams got hands lol.

I can easily see the dynamic theyre going for, its just an odd choice to target in free agency for a guy with some deficiencies. 

Rojo is more of a speed back with some power, not really a power back like the Buccs used Lenny. So this doesnt really fix our short yardage issues.  Unless hes supplanting all the running snaps and Clyde on 3rd down, but Reid doesnt like predictability. Im sure theres a plan in place, im very interested to see what they do.

[RedGold]

I wouldn’t really worry about how a RB fits.   I think Reid’s history of making a RB fit his system more then carries it’s weight,     Whether he uses them enough is another  question,   But I have full confidence we will get the best of Jones.

Not holding out a ton of hope… but it’s shocks me on his struggles,  as a prospect I thought Jones would make a career out of what he has struggled with so far .

 

I hate comparing guys to ex Chiefs.  But seriously watch a USC tape of him and tell me that isn’t Jamaal 

Edited March 28, 2022 by RedGold

[Jakuvious]

1 hour ago, Chiefer said:

My issue is Clyde is a very small target out there with no speed, so hes easily covered up. And hes not very good at pass blocking. Which i think is why Mahomes has leaned on Williams, a larger target that can pass block. Plus Williams got hands lol.

I can easily see the dynamic theyre going for, its just an odd choice to target in free agency for a guy with some deficiencies. 

Rojo is more of a speed back with some power, not really a power back like the Buccs used Lenny. So this doesnt really fix our short yardage issues.  Unless hes supplanting all the running snaps and Clyde on 3rd down, but Reid doesnt like predictability. Im sure theres a plan in place, im very interested to see what they do.

Jones is indeed speed+power. He isn't just a short yardage back, but is built in the style that Knile Davis was, except, you know, good. He's a one cut kind of runner that is best running forward, using the speed+power combo to either break away or get yards after contact. He has enough power to be good in short yardage while contributing elsewhere. But the point was more in him being the straight ahead runner, not a short specialist or anything.

As for Clyde, he doesn't have long speed, but he has plenty of agility and acceleration to be successful. Undersized back with agility is basically the exact profile you look for when you talk about a receiving back. James White, Darren Sproles, Giovanni Bernard, hell, even a guy like Alvin Kamara, all fit the profile of relatively short backs who ran 4.5 or slower 40s but are incredibly agile. That is exactly the guy you want to get the ball to out in space. Regardless of whether they're going to break it for 80 yards in the end, the agility and stop and start ability is far more important to turning it up field and/or getting away from that first tackler. CEH doesn't need to have great top end speed to be a great receiving back. He didn't need that in college either. People get far too hung up on CEH's speed. I know we all miss Jamaal Charles, but that breakaway long speed will wind up being relevant on like 3% of touches.

Fournette wasn't really used as a power back for the Bucs though either. He was their receiving specialist, hence Jones's low receiving totals. Jones had like 60% of Fournette's carries with 14% of his catches. We could use the exact same mix Tampa did, honestly, with CEH getting the Fournette touches.

I think Clyde will be the primary back, and will stay in on neutral and passing downs, while Jones comes in as a change of pace and for some short yardage stuff, along with Burton.

[Chiefer]

4 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

Jones is indeed speed+power. He isn't just a short yardage back, but is built in the style that Knile Davis was, except, you know, good. He's a one cut kind of runner that is best running forward, using the speed+power combo to either break away or get yards after contact. He has enough power to be good in short yardage while contributing elsewhere. But the point was more in him being the straight ahead runner, not a short specialist or anything.

As for Clyde, he doesn't have long speed, but he has plenty of agility and acceleration to be successful. Undersized back with agility is basically the exact profile you look for when you talk about a receiving back. James White, Darren Sproles, Giovanni Bernard, hell, even a guy like Alvin Kamara, all fit the profile of relatively short backs who ran 4.5 or slower 40s but are incredibly agile. That is exactly the guy you want to get the ball to out in space. Regardless of whether they're going to break it for 80 yards in the end, the agility and stop and start ability is far more important to turning it up field and/or getting away from that first tackler. CEH doesn't need to have great top end speed to be a great receiving back. He didn't need that in college either. People get far too hung up on CEH's speed. I know we all miss Jamaal Charles, but that breakaway long speed will wind up being relevant on like 3% of touches.

Fournette wasn't really used as a power back for the Bucs though either. He was their receiving specialist, hence Jones's low receiving totals. Jones had like 60% of Fournette's carries with 14% of his catches. We could use the exact same mix Tampa did, honestly, with CEH getting the Fournette touches.

I think Clyde will be the primary back, and will stay in on neutral and passing downs, while Jones comes in as a change of pace and for some short yardage stuff, along with Burton.

knile was also at least 220, Rojo is more a soaking wet 210, and hes much better than Knile as a runner. Knile wasnt even good at the one cut thing, kickoff returns though woof.

Either way it Sounds like our short yardage game will continue to be an issue. Unless we find us a big athletic kid in the draft. Im excited though because Rojo is easily the best RB on the roster from a pure running standpoint, well see a few longer runs from him if they keep opening up holes up front like they did last year.

Oh and idc about long speed in the pass game. Clyde just cant get open, its like his feet are in concrete even against LBs. He shows flashes of agility but its never consistent. Two things Mahomes wants most is you to get open, and to be consistent lol. This shouldn’t be an issue  on screens, but im pretty sure its why hes wasnt used more in the passing game. That and blocking ability. Are we just gonna rely on the OL and TEs for that on 3rd down?

 

[onejayhawk]

I am unsure about Jones. He could be here to fill a complimentary role as some have suggested. or he could be our new lead back and everyone is missing something the staff has seen. To say Clyde has been a disappointment understates things.

Either way, I do no view this as a minor depth signing. 

J

[RedGold]

Alright @KC_Guy you asked.    So don't want to leave you hanging.      Here's a break down of what our roster looks like currently,  with years of team control left.    Red is someone I consider a lock to make the 53.    Green is someone I consider borderline.      No color = Bottom of the roster, with an up hill climb to make it.

(2/2) QB:    Patrick Mahomes - 10 Years
                   Chad Henne -  1 Year
                   Shane Buechele

(3/5) RB:   Clyde Edwards Helaire -  2 Years
                  Ronald Jones  -  1 Year
                  Michael Burton -  1 Year
                  Derrick Gore -  1 Year + ERFA/RFA
                  Brenden Knox -  1 Year + ERFA/RFA

(3/6) WR:  Marquez Valdes-Scantling - 3 Years
                  Juju Smith-Schuster - 1 Year
                  Mecole Hardman - 1 Year
                  Josh Gordon -  1 Year
                  Daurice Fountain - 1 Year
                  Cornell Powell - 1 Year + ERFA/RFA
                  Corey Coleman - 1 Year
                  Justin Watson - 1 Year
                  Gehrig Dieter - 1 Year + ERFA/RFA
                  Gary Jennings - 1 Year + ERFA/RFA
                  Omar Bayless   -   1 Year +ERFA/RFA
                  Chris FInke   -   1 Year +ERFA/RFA
                  Matthew Sexton -   1 Year +ERFA/RFA  

(4/4) TE:  Travis Kelce - 4 Years
                  Blake Bell -  1 Year
                  Noah Gray - 3 Years
                  Jody Fortson - 1 Year + ERFA/RFA
                  Jordan Franks -   1 Year +ERFA/RFA
                  Matt Bushman -   1 Year +ERFA/RFA
                 Nakia Griffin-Stewart -   1 Year +ERFA/RFA
                Josh Pederson  -   1 Year +ERFA/RFA
                Mark Vital -   -   1 Year +ERFA/RFA 

7/9 (OL):  T Orlando Brown - 1 Year
                 G Joe Thuney - 4 Year
                 C Creed Humphrey - 3 Year
                 G Trey Smith - 3 Year
                 T Andrew Wylie - 1 Year
                 T  Lucas Niang  - 3 Year
                 G Nick Allegretti  - 1 Year
                 T  Geron Christian  - 1 Year
                 C Austin Reiter  -  1 Year
                 T Roderick Johnson   - 1 Year
                 T Price Tega-Wanagho -   1 Year +ERFA/RFA
                 C Daryll Williams - -   1 Year +ERFA/RFA

 

From an offensive standpoint,  I think the Depth Chart up top is pretty much locked down,  and we have the guys we will be taking the majority of snap counts.     I don't think that means we don't have any High priority needs on this side of the ball though.      As it currently stands,    Our WR2-WR5 are all on 1 year deals.    #2 RB is one a one year deal.   All our reserve lineman are on 1 year deals.    From an offensive needs list this is how I would have it:

High Priority:    WR,  WR
Med Priority:  RB, IOL, T
Low Priority:  IOL
 

Defense -  I see 2 gaps left for 2022.    We still need a starting Edge Rusher and CB.   Other than that,  I think the Depth Chart looks pretty good for 2022.

3/6(Edge):    Frank Clark- 2 Years
                      Michael Danna - 2 Years
                      Joshua Kaindoh - 3 Years
                      Malik Herring -  1 Year +ERFA/RFA
                      Jonathan Woodyard -  1 Year + RFA
                     Austin Edwards -   1 Year + ERFA/RFA
                     Shilique Calhaun -  1 Year

4/4(DT):   Chris Jones - 2 Years
                 Derrick Nnadi - 1 Year
                 Tershawn Wharton - 1 Year + RFA
                 Khalen Saunders -  1 Year
                 Darius Stills - 1 Year + ERFA/RFA
                 Lorenzo Neal - 1 Year + ERFA/RFA
                 Cortez Broughton - 1 year + ERFA/RFA

4/4(LB):   Nick Bolton -  3 Years
                 Willie Gay -  2 Years
                 Jermaine Johnson - 1 Year
                 Elijah Lee -  1 Year
                 Darius Harris -  1 Year

3/6(CB):   Rashad Fenton -  1 Year
                 L'Jarius Sneed -  2 Years
                 Deandre Baker - 1 Year + RFA
                 Dicaprio Bootle -  1 Year + ERFA/RFA
                 Luq Barcoo -   1 Year + ERFA/RFA

3/4(Saf):   Justin Reid -  3 Year
                 Juan Thornhaill - 1 Year
                 Deon Bush -   1 Year
                 Zayne Anderson - 1 Year +ERFA/RFA
                 Devon Key -  1 Year + ERFA/RFA
                 Brandin Dandridge -   1 Year +ERFA/RFA
                

3/3 (ST's):   Tommy Townsend -  1 Year + RFA
                     Harrison Butker -  3 Years
                     James Winchester - 2 Years

 

* As stated before,  I think the 2022 team is sorely missing a veteran starter at Edge and CB,  and it appears we are checking in on both those in FA.      If we manage to fill both of those,  I see our draft needs as;

High Priority:  Edge, Edge, CB , CB
Med Priority:  Saf, LB , DT   
Low Priority: P,  LB, Saf, CB, DT

 

In short,  my priority.   Is as much about what the 2023 Depth Chart looks like,  as it is the 2022.     So while I have no problems with our WR's right now,    I want to get guys into the system so that next year we are better suited on not having to fill these spots with low level Veterans.    

In all my needs priority list would be;

High Priority(1st/3rd):  WR, WR , Edge, Edge , CB , CB
Med Priority(4th/6th):  RB, IOL , T , Saf , LB, DT
Low Priority(6th7th):  P, IOL , LB , Saf, CB, DT

Players that are currently showing on the 2022 53,  that I would be looking to find a depth player with more years of team control:   
WR Josh Gordon
DT Khalen Saunders
LB Elijah  Lee
 

My ideal Draft  (assuming we lock up a veteran at Edge & CB)

29th Overall -  Treylon Burks, WR 
30th Overall -  Kaiir Elam , CB
50th Overall - Arnold Ebiketie , Edge
62nd Overall - Sam Williams , Edge 
94th Overall - Jalen Tolbert , WR
103 Overall -  Joshua Williams , CB
121st Overall -  Dameon Pierce, RB
135th Overall -  Dohnovan West,  IOL
234th Overall -   P, DT, LB , Saf
244th Overall -  P, DT, LB, Saf
252nd Overall - P, DT, LB , Saf
260th Overall - P, DT, LB, Saf

 

I do believe we package a couple of the 7ths to move up and get a better prospect.   I say all this to say,   just because the 2022 looks pretty good,  it doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to fill out the bottom of the Depth Chart with guys on longer contracts.

[kingseanjohn]

I hope we don’t.

[Chiefs_5627]

2 hours ago, kingseanjohn said:

I hope we don’t.

The lady that put that out there just made it sound very generalized and I think this guy upped it. I could see us using a 4th or something for a Brandon Cooks type but I'd be very surprised if we were trying to pry DK or someone like that away from their club. Seems more like a due diligence type thing we're doing.

Here's the video: 

 

 

 

[Jakuvious]

There's a dramatic difference between calling teams to trade for "one of their top receivers" versus calling to "try and trade for a top receiver." The latter makes it sound like we're going for a DK or Deebo, a top WR in the league. The former just means a receiver higher up in someone's depth chart. That could still be like, Shenault.