1 Year Peak: Who's the 3rd best WR of all time behind Rice/Moss

[FrantikRam]

3 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Let's look at average depth per target per year for the Rams:

2018
Cooks: 12.8
Woods: 11.4
Kupp: 8.4

2019

Cooks: 13.9
Woods: 8.4
Kupp: 7.2

2020

Woods: 7.0
Reynolds: 10.9
Kupp: 6.3

Kupp absolutely was a "possession receiver" the 3 years prior to 2021. Of the 3 primary WRs, he ran by far the shortest routes, and it's not even close. 

 

 

Okay if you call having elite agility, route running, breaking tackles and being a YAC monster a possession WR I guess we're on the same page. I don't care what someone's numbers are - part of throwing him shorter passes is to allow him to do what he does best - make people miss in the open field.

[AngusMcFife]

1 minute ago, FrantikRam said:

 

That was mainly because of Goff.

And again, he's always been extremely dynamic after the catch, so not what I would call a possession WR.

It's not because of Goff. Cooks, Woods, and Reynolds all ran significant deeper routes than Kupp when they played with Goff, so you can't blame it on the QB. 

[AngusMcFife]

3 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

 

 

Okay if you call having elite agility, route running, breaking tackles and being a YAC monster a possession WR I guess we're on the same page. I don't care what someone's numbers are - part of throwing him shorter passes is to allow him to do what he does best - make people miss in the open field.

To be fair, I was calling him a possession WR from 2018-2020, when his production was good but not any better than Woods. 2021 is a different story, even though he still is running significantly shorter routes than other WR1s like Adams, Jefferson, Diggs, Hill, etc. 

I'm not here to slander Kupp, I just think his 2021 season is an outlier and I question how much of that is due to sheer brilliance by Kupp or the scheme by McVay. If he can keep it up for the next couple seasons I'll gladly reconsider. 

[Superduperman]

I loved Calvin and watched nearly every game he played. His best seasons were 11 and 12, in 2012 he had the tremendous 1964 yard season but caught only 5 touchdowns. 2011 might have been better, around 1700 yards but 16 TDs.

Saying Kupp is a better route runner than him displays ignorance of Calvin's game and assumes he was only a big body contested catch WR, which is not true at all. He ran great routes. He had less make-you-miss YAC simply because of his bigger frame, but more power with the ball in his hands for the same reason.

Even as a big Lions fan, I have to say I wouldn't put him above TO, though. In terms of raw talent, they're on a similar level, but Calvin never had that ultimate competitor edge that the very top tier has, in my opinion. He had a number of clutch moments where he failed to make plays that could have taken the Lions to a higher level, maybe not true contenders but above the 'mediocre or slightly below' level they were at most of his years. Honestly I was pretty shocked that he went first ballot HOF.

As for Kupp, he's a scheme guy. He's a better version of Wes Welker. Excellent WR but to put him anywhere near Calvin or Moss, TO, Rice, is laughable.

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Superduperman

[OkeyDoke21]

20 hours ago, FrantikRam said:

 

That was Kupp vs Chase. Both played 17 games.

You used Kupp's statistics from 21 games.  Hutson's was from 11 games.  

Edited May 18, 2022 by OkeyDoke21

[FrantikRam]

33 minutes ago, Superduperman said:

I loved Calvin and watched nearly every game he played. His best seasons were 11 and 12, in 2012 he had the tremendous 1964 yard season but caught only 5 touchdowns. 2011 might have been better, around 1700 yards but 16 TDs.

Saying Kupp is a better route runner than him displays ignorance of Calvin's game and assumes he was only a big body contested catch WR, which is not true at all. He ran great routes. He had less make-you-miss YAC simply because of his bigger frame, but more power with the ball in his hands for the same reason.

Even as a big Lions fan, I have to say I wouldn't put him above TO, though. In terms of raw talent, they're on a similar level, but Calvin never had that ultimate competitor edge that the very top tier has, in my opinion. He had a number of clutch moments where he failed to make plays that could have taken the Lions to a higher level, maybe not true contenders but above the 'mediocre or slightly below' level they were at most of his years. Honestly I was pretty shocked that he went first ballot HOF.

As for Kupp, he's a scheme guy. He's a better version of Wes Welker. Excellent WR but to put him anywhere near Calvin or Moss, TO, Rice, is laughable.

 

 

 

He's definitely closer to those guys than he is Welker, and I'd question why you went there...but I think I already know. You should google "Ryan Clark Cooper Kupp" and watch a segment Clark did.

It's funny that you bring up Rice - now, mind you, I'm not saying that Kupp's career is comparable to Rice's - but:

Rice - 6'2" 200 lbs, 4.6/4.7 forty

Kupp - 6'2" 200 lbs, 4.6 forty

Both went to small schools

 

Now, I don't know what Rice's other combine numbers were - but Kupp's shuttle and cone drill were elite.

Kupp just had the best single season in NFL history. There aren't really that many outliers in that territory (1700+ yards in a season) - mostly hall of famers.

 

For route running, I am not saying Johnson wasn't a good route runner - but Kupp IMO is better.

[Soko]

20 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

It's not because of Goff. Cooks, Woods, and Reynolds all ran significant deeper routes than Kupp when they played with Goff, so you can't blame it on the QB. 

I do think it’s a function of the offense. Kupp’s so good at what he does, it doesn’t make sense to pigeonhole him into any other role than what he’s been doing. Sort of like labeling a Moss “just” a deep threat - it’s not that he can’t do anything else, he’s just so good at doing something else that you’d be silly to consistently put him anywhere else.

Kupp can be a guy who works the sideline and takes the top off (the way Jordy or a Miles Austin did) if they used him that way, IMO.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

god i hate comparing today's players to dudes from 1940. Even worse, people on this forum pretending guys from 1940 are even comparable to today's players.

[AngusMcFife]

4 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

I do think it’s a function of the offense. Kupp’s so good at what he does, it doesn’t make sense to pigeonhole him into any other role than what he’s been doing. Sort of like labeling a Moss “just” a deep threat - it’s not that he can’t do anything else, he’s just so good at doing something else that you’d be silly to consistently put him anywhere else.

Kupp can be a guy who works the sideline and takes the top off (the way Jordy or a Miles Austin did) if they used him that way, IMO.

He wasn't that good at what he does until 2021, though. Prior to 2021 he was a good possession WR who wasn't even at Wes Welker levels of production, he was more at Julian Edelman level.  

I just don't see him being that good in as a traditional deep outside receiving threat. Perfectly functional, but no Calvin Johnson. 

[AngusMcFife]

1 hour ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

god i hate comparing today's players to dudes from 1940. Even worse, people on this forum pretending guys from 1940 are even comparable to today's players.

If you want to talk peak production in NFL history, then you have to include players from the 1940s. If someone wants to say who are the best in the modern era, the OP should state that they aren't interested in comparing players of earlier eras. 

[Soko]

15 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

He wasn't that good at what he does until 2021, though. Prior to 2021 he was a good possession WR who wasn't even at Wes Welker levels of production, he was more at Julian Edelman level.  

As a function of the offense. Most other years the team had a bonafide deep threat. Kupp was in his role. Just because he didn’t doesn’t mean he couldn’t.

15 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

I just don't see him being that good in as a traditional deep outside receiving threat. Perfectly functional, but no Calvin Johnson. 

No, not Megatron as a deep threat. Like I said, I think he had that Jordy/Austin ability.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

19 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

If you want to talk peak production in NFL history, then you have to include players from the 1940s. If someone wants to say who are the best in the modern era, the OP should state that they aren't interested in comparing players of earlier eras. 

it's impossible to compare those guys because anyone from those eras would've been cut in high school in today's age. Like, congrats you posted some good stats when nobody knew what a forward pass was. How am I supposed to take this seriously when comparing it today's NFL?

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by AFlaccoSeagulls

[AngusMcFife]

42 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

it's impossible to compare those guys because anyone from those eras would've been cut in high school in today's age. Like, congrats you posted some good stats when nobody knew what a forward pass was. How am I supposed to take this seriously when comparing it today's NFL?

 

The play you posted isn't marginally worse than Pagano's Colts fake punt play vs the Pats, or Jim Zorn's Redskins fake FG vs the Giants. Ever see Aaron Brooks throw the ball backwards? I'm not sure what you think that video is supposed to prove.  

So according to your logic, what year specifically can you consider a player to be an all time great, and all other players before that year cannot be considered because overall the play was inferior to today's standards? And how specifically do you come up with that year, i.e. what standards are you using to measure the overall play of the NFL? 

I personally think players like Hutson are significant because he invented modern route running. It's a lot harder to come up with techniques nobody has ever done before than it is to train using all the ideas Hutson invented. A guy like Hutson was an innovator and incredibly dominant, whereas Kupp is fairly dominant and has invented literally nothing, he's just standing on the shoulders of Hutson.  

[SkippyX]

Kupp 2021 was the best WR season (counting playoffs and oh boy do they count)

Its like Terrell Davis 1998 for a WR.

 

Don't overlook Crazy Legs 1951

1495 and 17 in 12 games at 22.7 a catch and 124.6 yards per game

He only had 66 yards in the title game but they won.

 

Don Hutson 1942 was not too bad either 1211 and 17 in 11 games (no playoffs at 8-2-1 back then)

[mdonnelly21]

On 5/19/2022 at 11:43 AM, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

it's impossible to compare those guys because anyone from those eras would've been cut in high school in today's age. Like, congrats you posted some good stats when nobody knew what a forward pass was. How am I supposed to take this seriously when comparing it today's NFL?

 

Lmfaooo 

I laughed as I read this the whole time.