Sunday GDT: Around the League, but really Browns/Jags

[titans0021]

Note: I'm mainly looking at old GDT's to verify that I'm not going insane and that they've always been exactly like they are now. Because that's what I've been saying all year. 

[titans0021]

It also makes me sad to know that I've been complaining about officiating on FF for nearly a decade at this point.

[TitanSlim]

Yeah, it's been like a civil war around here between those who are deemed too negative about the team vs those who mock those who are deemed negative. Between the play on the field and the tension on here (specifically after loses), it hasn't made this season that enjoyable for me.

 

Regarding Mariota, I truly feel Thursday was a season(maybe even career) altering game. That may be a bold claim and maybe this is just my blind faith/hope speaking, but I think we're going to see a change in his play, for the better, from now on.

He's reached a somewhat critical part in his young career, as this is the first time people are beginning to question if he is truly our franchise QB. I believe he's going to rise up to this challenge and play like the franchise QB, myself, and many others believe he is.

[Mesa_Titan]

Everyone just needs to use the ignore list. It's a feature for a reason. Once I blocked the specific people it was a breeze until we started getting dominated.

Think next Sunday's GDT is going to be a lot more enjoyable for me.

[VY-FTW]

Well I will agree with you that people me included have been on the more negative posts BUT WE WOULDNT BE WHINY IF THERE WERENT SO MANY THE SKY IS FALLING POSTS LMAO

Like yall can flip it any way you want. The fact is one side of this "Civil war" wouldn't exist if we werent screaming FIRE EVERYONE BACK IN WEEK 1

But whatever

[VY-FTW]

1 minute ago, Mesa_Titan said:

Everyone just needs to use the ignore list. It's a feature for a reason. Once I blocked the specific people it was a breeze until we started getting dominated.

Think next Sunday's GDT is going to be a lot more enjoyable for me.

I didn't want to do that but I guess that is where were at now. 

Oh well lol

[Mesa_Titan]

Just now, VY-FTW said:

I didn't want to do that but I guess that is where were at now. 

Oh well lol

You can unblock them after the game is over easily. That's what I did. And I'll just re-block them when the next game starts. Easy peezy.

[titans0021]

20 minutes ago, TitanSlim said:

Yeah, it's been like a civil war around here between those who are deemed too negative about the team vs those who mock those who are deemed negative.

This, more than anything, is what bothers me. We have fans mocking the glass half full fans and then the glass half full fans mocking the more negative/pessimistic fans with equal enthusiasm. There's no right side here. If the more optimistic fans would just stick to optimistic takes on the team, great, they're in the right. But that's now how it's working. At all. In any way.

I don't want two GDT's because I have no real idea as to how you divide them, but if posters can't stop mocking one another, I guess it's something to look into. 

To be honest, I just don't get it. And I guess I just don't see it. Nothing has changed from last year. Nothing has really changed from 2012. The only thing that's really changed is the fan base's expectation level and how they think about the talent on the roster. It's the same way it's always been. If something positive happens, you get a positive page, if something bad happens, it's a rough page. It's just that some fans want to savor any win because of what we've gone through and others want the team to play up to the level that they believe they're capable of. I honestly don't think either of those two things are wrong.

I'm going to try to do a better job of policing the little arguments in the GDT's. Beyond that, if everyone could stop bickering with each other on both sides, there's a chance for real discussion about the state of the team.

[TitanLegend]

16 minutes ago, deeluxx3 said:

There is absolutely no way...no way whatsoever...that you can say a 24 year old QB, especially playing in a 1950s system, will ever be elite or not

Sure it's possible he randomly gets much better, but I don't see it happening. His decision making goes wacky too frequently, his accuracy outside the numbers is inconsistent. Too many weaknesses to cover up to ever enter that elite category. Gonna sound extremely arrogant here, but I trust my evaluation of QBs in the NFL, which I give a couple seasons to show what they've got. There are certainly cases of QBs who change their careers much later on, but those are pretty rare occurrences. We're 36 games in to Marcus' career, we know what he is at this point.

You can blame the offense or system or whatever all you want, but a QB's traits and fundamentals don't generally change.

I had this same debate with Raider fans before the season started, who rushed to tell me I was being offensive by calling Derek Carr a franchise, but not elite QB. Putting him in the McNabb-type tier was apparently an insult to him. They were convinced despite his reliance on the short passing game and relying on his receivers to consistently make ridiculous catches meant nothing because his "stat line" showed he was great. Yet, here we are this season, and now that the Raiders aren't leading their division with a great record, suddenly his stat line(which is extremely similar to last year, though the INTs have increased) isn't elite anymore.

Carr is the exact same QB he was last year, but the media would tell you otherwise because his stat line is uglier.

Marcus is the exact same QB he was last year, but the media would tell you otherwise cause his stat line is uglier.

They're the same QB because traits and fundamentals don't change, especially not this far in to their careers.

Sure maybe Marcus goes in to a different system and puts up more TDs cause we aren't letting Murray and Henry pound it in at the goal line and instead have Marcus throw more down there, or whatever, but a change in stat line doesn't mean the QB has changed.

[titans0021]

13 minutes ago, titans0021 said:

This, more than anything, is what bothers me. We have fans mocking the glass half full fans and then the glass half full fans mocking the more negative/pessimistic fans with equal enthusiasm. There's no right side here. If the more optimistic fans would just stick to optimistic takes on the team, great, they're in the right. But that's now how it's working. At all. In any way.

I don't want two GDT's because I have no real idea as to how you divide them, but if posters can't stop mocking one another, I guess it's something to look into. 

To be honest, I just don't get it. And I guess I just don't see it. Nothing has changed from last year. Nothing has really changed from 2012. The only thing that's really changed is the fan base's expectation level and how they think about the talent on the roster. It's the same way it's always been. If something positive happens, you get a positive page, if something bad happens, it's a rough page. It's just that some fans want to savor any win because of what we've gone through and others want the team to play up to the level that they believe they're capable of. I honestly don't think either of those two things are wrong.

I'm going to try to do a better job of policing the little arguments in the GDT's. Beyond that, if everyone could stop bickering with each other on both sides, there's a chance for real discussion about the state of the team.

Just going to quote myself here because a lot of this is me thinking out loud (or in type, I guess?). We, mostly I, have also done a poor job of allowing us to fall back into the trap of posting almost everything in GDT's throughout the week. So a lot of times, if you want to read about the daily news, you'll have to surf through a negative prediction for the coming game. Which probably adds to some posters' impression of things being overly negative. So let's move away from that.

[deeluxx3]

37 minutes ago, TitanLegend said:

Sure it's possible he randomly gets much better, but I don't see it happening. His decision making goes wacky too frequently, his accuracy outside the numbers is inconsistent. Too many weaknesses to cover up to ever enter that elite category. Gonna sound extremely arrogant here, but I trust my evaluation of QBs in the NFL, which I give a couple seasons to show what they've got. There are certainly cases of QBs who change their careers much later on, but those are pretty rare occurrences. We're 36 games in to Marcus' career, we know what he is at this point.

You can blame the offense or system or whatever all you want, but a QB's traits and fundamentals don't generally change.

I had this same debate with Raider fans before the season started, who rushed to tell me I was being offensive by calling Derek Carr a franchise, but not elite QB. Putting him in the McNabb-type tier was apparently an insult to him. They were convinced despite his reliance on the short passing game and relying on his receivers to consistently make ridiculous catches meant nothing because his "stat line" showed he was great. Yet, here we are this season, and now that the Raiders aren't leading their division with a great record, suddenly his stat line(which is extremely similar to last year, though the INTs have increased) isn't elite anymore.

Carr is the exact same QB he was last year, but the media would tell you otherwise because his stat line is uglier.

Marcus is the exact same QB he was last year, but the media would tell you otherwise cause his stat line is uglier.

They're the same QB because traits and fundamentals don't change, especially not this far in to their careers.

Sure maybe Marcus goes in to a different system and puts up more TDs cause we aren't letting Murray and Henry pound it in at the goal line and instead have Marcus throw more down there, or whatever, but a change in stat line doesn't mean the QB has changed.

24 years old as of like three weeks ago

played his first season with an absolute dumpster fire of a team 

missed an entire offseason of work rehabbing from an injury 

playing in a bizarre system with a group of WRs who are essentially the same player 

has played for 2 head coaches already and only in his second year of an offensive system 

has had no run game to consistently help out for half his career 

and yet, has been complimented repeatedly by players on how good he is going to be. These aren't things we ever hear about VY (when he was winning) or Locker

 

it's too soon. And the things you mention like him not hitting guys outside the numbers are things he can work on. VY couldn't throw a deep ball to save his life until like 2009 and all of a sudden it was his best ball. Your logic doesn't make sense to me. You say the same issues remain from last year. That's kind of true. But he didn't have an offseason to iron some kinks out, but we see him throwing the ball away more than last year, the fumbles aren't happening either. The picks are up, yea, but stuff like decision making can definitely be improved upon (see a guy named Peyton manning).

It's completely asinine to say that, after 36 games, especially given the situation he's been in with this team, his traits/qualities won't change and he can't jump to "elite" status. Was Big Ben never elite to you? Peyton manning? When did Tom Brady go from a Troy Aikman to the Best ever?

 

edit -- and how could I forget Drew brees?! Should we throw ARodg in this group, too? Anyone remember when Viking favre embarassed him on prime time?

[titans0021]

After watching Marcus on Thursday, Browns/Jags at noon, a lot of Broncos/Bengals and Bills/Chargers in the 3 p.m. games and now Eagles/Cowboys on SNF, I desperately need to see some competent QB play before I go insane.

[VY-FTW]

Go back to Week 1.. And see posters calling for coaches heads.  FIRE EVERYONE 

LOL. But I can see how us pointing out the negative has become just as big of problem. 

I don't think any of us are very happy with the way things have went this year cause we obv can be better but we're still in a good spot for the playoffs so Idc anymore. Lets just all make better posts like the old days. Lets all just get along 

[TitanLegend]

1 minute ago, deeluxx3 said:

24 years old as of like three weeks ago

played his first season with an absolute dumpster fire of a team 

missed an entire offseason of work rehabbing from an injury 

playing in a bizarre system with a group of WRs who are essentially the same player 

has played for 2 head coaches already and only in his second year of an offensive system 

has had no run game to consistently help out for half his career 

and yet, has been complimented repeatedly by players on how good he is going to be. These aren't things we ever hear about VY (when he was winning) or Locker

 

it's too soon. And the things you mention like him not hitting guys outside the numbers are things he can work on. VY couldn't throw a deep ball to save his life until like 2009 and all of a sudden it was his best ball. Your logic doesn't make sense to me. You say the same issues remain from last year. That's kind of true. But he didn't have an offseason to iron some kinks out, but we see him throwing the ball away more than last year, the fumbles aren't happening either. The picks are up, yea, but stuff like decision making can definitely be improved upon (see a guy named Peyton manning).

It's completely asinine to say that, after 36 games, especially given the situation he's been in with this team, his traits/qualities won't change and he can't jump to "elite" status. Was Big Ben never elite to you? Peyton manning? When did Tom Brady go from a Troy Aikman to the Best ever?

Marcus is already good, doesn't need to be complimented on "how good he's going to be". He's there. Like I said statistics can change based on system, but the QB pretty much never does this late in his career. There are examples of otherwise(most notably guys like Rich Gannon), however in a lot of cases of "this guy suddenly got a ton better", isn't actually the guy getting better, it's just him doing more. You bring up Tom Brady going from "Troy Aikman to best ever", Brady was a top tier QB even during his "Troy Aikman" years, he just wasn't in the position to put up those numbers cause he didn't need to. New England's defense was dominant, he generally had a reliable run game(especially the season with Corey Dillon), didn't have flashy receivers but guys who held on to the ball when it was thrown to them.

After New England's dominant defense from it's first dynasty run started to age/fall apart/etc, they asked Tom to do more, and he did it. He wasn't any different, the system was just different. Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Gronk, Hernandez(when he had him), etc. were brought in to try and make the offense score more points to make up for the defense giving up more. And in terms of winning superbowls, this actually failed them(didn't win a single superbowl using this method), but Brady was capable of QBing an elite offense. He always has been. It's just whether or not he was asked to. You don't lead numerous game winning drives in the playoffs and superbowls and not be an all-time great.

And no, Big Ben has never been elite. He's had stretches of elite play I guess, but never been consistent enough to jump in to that category. Really good QB though, and followed a somewhat similar path to Brady. Early on, they just asked him to manage games, defense won most of their games, Ben made plays when they needed him to. Got them two superbowl wins using that formula.

Yes, Peyton was an elite QB. However his statistical greatness(at least not the greatness associated with Peyton today, his numbers before his jump were still really good for their time) didn't really come forth until the rule changes in 04. Before then you could bully receivers. Which hurt what Manning was best at, reading the defense at the line then making quick decisive throws asap after the snap. After the rule changes in 04(that Irsay, Manning's owner, cried for), all of the sudden the INTs that were caused by DBs just destroying the receivers off the line disappeared and Manning's numbers took a huge leap. Manning's numbers pre-04 were generally top of the line for pre-04 QBs. McNair and Manning shared co-MVP in 2003 with 24-7 and 29-10 TD/INT ratios respectively, something that is just common place in today's rules(Mariota, as an example, threw 26-9 last season)

Part of what is going to set Marcus up for failure is those expecting him to be Peyton or Rodgers or Brady. He's just not that. He is however a franchise QB that's good enough to win with, and that's all you need in this league. Don't expect much more(sure, some slight improvements could be made, such as less "wtf?" interceptions as he gains more and more experience vs various defensive schemes) than what he is already, otherwise you're just setting yourself up for disappointment, and asking for way too much from him.

[TitanSlim]

Honestly, not being "elite" isn't a negative connotation that fans make it out to be. Maybe it's just because I'm picky when it comes to the "elite" label regarding QBs.

If Mariota ends his career at a McNabb/McNair level (guys who I never considered elite), I think we'd all be more than satisfied.