Trevor Lawrence has arrived

[.Buzz]

Edit: Wrong thread

[CKSteeler]

3 minutes ago, ET80 said:

2019 was 17th, and again - perhaps you missed where you're comparing a full season vs 1/3 of a season.

Numbers and rankings don't operate like that, this is basic Elementary mathematics. You're comparing a full picture to a picture that's being drawn as we speak.

7 games in gives us an idea of what a team is, yes. 7 games also doesn't = 1/3rd of the NFL season, last I checked.

 

4 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Not if you watched him play football. He's a poor mans' Case Keenum, prone to mistakes and more likely to give up extra yards on sacks or fumble the ball when trying to extend a play than do something positive (he lost 12 fumbles that first season - better stated, as many times as Lawrence lost fumbles in his entire career to this point).

And he won more games and moved the ball more efficiently. And how many first round draft picks could you say the exact same things about (mistake prone, fumbles too much, throws too many picks etc.)? You are the one who is obtuse. Minshew lacks the physical skills that make NFL evaluators get hard. He doesn't have what Lawrence has, tools wise. But his play was in many respects superior to the guy who was the #1 pick. We are nearly 1.5 seasons into his career, and you guys are praising Lawrence for being in a position where he's comparable to a guy who was a UDFA who is now on the bench.

You people are basing everything you are arguing about Lawrence off projections and potential which you didn't see in a guy like Minshew. It has almost nothing to do with what he's actually done on an NFL field so far.

[KhanYouDigIt]

3 minutes ago, CKSteeler said:

7 games in gives us an idea of what a team is, yes. 7 games also doesn't = 1/3rd of the NFL season, last I checked.

 

And he won more games and moved the ball more efficiently. And how many first round draft picks could you say the exact same things about (mistake prone, fumbles too much, throws too many picks etc.)? You are the one who is obtuse. Minshew lacks the physical skills that make NFL evaluators get hard. He doesn't have what Lawrence has, tools wise. But his play was in many respects superior to the guy who was the #1 pick. We are nearly 1.5 seasons into his career, and you guys are praising Lawrence for being in a position where he's comparable to a guy who was a UDFA who is now on the bench.

You people are basing everything you are arguing about Lawrence off projections and potential which you didn't see in a guy like Minshew. It has almost nothing to do with what he's actually done on an NFL field so far.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/game/_/gameId/401220149
 

would you say Gardner played good this game

[ET80]

48 minutes ago, CKSteeler said:

7 games in gives us an idea of what a team is, yes. 7 games also doesn't = 1/3rd of the NFL season, last I checked.

Yes, seven games gives us an idea - let's just ask the 2021 Champion Arizona Cardinals and MVP Kyler Murray how that works...

... what's that you say? The 7-0 Cardinals went 4-6 down the stretch and lost in the Wildcard round? Kyler Murray was in fact, NOT NFL MVP?

But... we knew SO MUCH!

48 minutes ago, CKSteeler said:

And he won more games and moved the ball more efficiently.

With a better team around him, I don't understand what is so difficult for you to get on this. Do I need to break our crayons and glitter glue, talk to you like a child? 

Wins aren't a QB stat. Quit using it as such.

48 minutes ago, CKSteeler said:

And how many first round draft picks could you say the exact same things about (mistake prone, fumbles too much, throws too many picks etc.)?

We're not talking about other first round picks, we're talking about Gardner Minshew - a guy who was below average to begin with and only made his situation worse with his errant play. 

48 minutes ago, CKSteeler said:

You are the one who is obtuse.

Your reputation precedes you in these parts - you're obtuse and you really don't know what you're talking about at any given moment. Every single thing I've seen you debate is horrendous and you double down with nothing even resembling a logical response.

48 minutes ago, CKSteeler said:

Minshew lacks the physical skills that make NFL evaluators get hard. He doesn't have what Lawrence has, tools wise. But his play was in many respects superior to the guy who was the #1 pick.

How many times have you actually seen Minshew play? I'll answer that question for you - ZERO. I'm 100% certain of this. That's why you're relying strictly on stats and no reference to anything he actually did on the field. You have yet to describe anything about his playstyle, his strengths, his weaknesses - you just lean on stats like a drunk person leans on a light pole.

48 minutes ago, CKSteeler said:

You people are basing everything you are arguing about Lawrence off projections and potential which you didn't see in a guy like Minshew. It has almost nothing to do with what he's actually done on an NFL field so far.

And you're basing everything you're saying on Minshew from stats you looked up on Pro Football Reference - which is worse.

[.Buzz]

 

[jofos]

19 hours ago, ET80 said:

Yes, seven games gives us an idea - let's just ask the 2021 Champion Arizona Cardinals and MVP Kyler Murray how that works...

... what's that you say? The 7-0 Cardinals went 4-6 down the stretch and lost in the Wildcard round? Kyler Murray was in fact, NOT NFL MVP?

But... we knew SO MUCH!

With a better team around him, I don't understand what is so difficult for you to get on this. Do I need to break our crayons and glitter glue, talk to you like a child? 

Wins aren't a QB stat. Quit using it as such.

We're not talking about other first round picks, we're talking about Gardner Minshew - a guy who was below average to begin with and only made his situation worse with his errant play. 

Your reputation precedes you in these parts - you're obtuse and you really don't know what you're talking about at any given moment. Every single thing I've seen you debate is horrendous and you double down with nothing even resembling a logical response.

How many times have you actually seen Minshew play? I'll answer that question for you - ZERO. I'm 100% certain of this. That's why you're relying strictly on stats and no reference to anything he actually did on the field. You have yet to describe anything about his playstyle, his strengths, his weaknesses - you just lean on stats like a drunk person leans on a light pole.

And you're basing everything you're saying on Minshew from stats you looked up on Pro Football Reference - which is worse.

But you have to admit that Mishew could probably throw a ball over them mountains...

[notthatbluestuff]

[KhanYouDigIt]

19 hours ago, ET80 said:

Yes, seven games gives us an idea - let's just ask the 2021 Champion Arizona Cardinals and MVP Kyler Murray how that works...

... what's that you say? The 7-0 Cardinals went 4-6 down the stretch and lost in the Wildcard round? Kyler Murray was in fact, NOT NFL MVP?

But... we knew SO MUCH!

With a better team around him, I don't understand what is so difficult for you to get on this. Do I need to break our crayons and glitter glue, talk to you like a child? 

Wins aren't a QB stat. Quit using it as such.

We're not talking about other first round picks, we're talking about Gardner Minshew - a guy who was below average to begin with and only made his situation worse with his errant play. 

Your reputation precedes you in these parts - you're obtuse and you really don't know what you're talking about at any given moment. Every single thing I've seen you debate is horrendous and you double down with nothing even resembling a logical response.

How many times have you actually seen Minshew play? I'll answer that question for you - ZERO. I'm 100% certain of this. That's why you're relying strictly on stats and no reference to anything he actually did on the field. You have yet to describe anything about his playstyle, his strengths, his weaknesses - you just lean on stats like a drunk person leans on a light pole.

And you're basing everything you're saying on Minshew from stats you looked up on Pro Football Reference - which is worse.

CK has waived the white flag. Dad making me proud.

 

360 IAY for the checkdown king yesterday.

[Soko]

22 hours ago, CKSteeler said:

And I'll go through the list of great QB's who racked up interceptions on bad teams early in their career who amounted to something.

Still waiting for this list, squire. 

I give you the benefit of the doubt because you were smart enough to accurately identify me as a closet Packers fan and Aaron Rodgers cult follower, but now I’m starting to think you’re lying…

[CKSteeler]

On 10/23/2022 at 9:18 PM, ET80 said:

Yes, seven games gives us an idea - let's just ask the 2021 Champion Arizona Cardinals and MVP Kyler Murray how that works...

Nearly half a season is too small a sample size to make any judgements (let alone 1.5 seasons, apparently) because the Cardinals imploded last year. Got it. Ironclad logic.

The reality is that every year, you can pretty much tell who the playoff teams will be through the first 4 weeks. Teams that start 0-4 or 1-3 are mostly dead in the water. Through 7 games, it's a clearer picture. Yea, there are exceptions, but it's pretty asinine to claim 7 games is meaningless in a 17 game season. 

On 10/23/2022 at 9:18 PM, ET80 said:

How many times have you actually seen Minshew play? I'll answer that question for you - ZERO. I'm 100% certain of this. That's why you're relying strictly on stats and no reference to anything he actually did on the field. You have yet to describe anything about his playstyle, his strengths, his weaknesses - you just lean on stats like a drunk person leans on a light pole.

Logic is arguing that Minshew benefited from a superior run game that was less productive than the one Minshew had (through 7 games, admittedly) or had a better defense despite them allowing more points (yes, through 7 games). Even though both statements are true even if we compare the 2022 Jaguars and 2019 through 7 games? Minshew had the Jaguars in a better place as a UDFA than Lawrence does in his second year with a supporting cast that was objectively performing worse?

But I'm the irrational and obtuse one because you named a few veterans they had on defense, regardless of the actual performance the whole unit was putting up? 

Your argument boils down to Minshew was obviously bad because he was Gardner Minshew, and Trevor Lawrence is obviously playing better because he's Trevor Lawrence. We can sum it all up nicely like that. There's no stats you can point to. There's no particular plays you are even isolating to back up your case. There's...nothing beyond insults and declarations that you are right.

It is pigeon chess, ET. That is what your argument boils down to.

Edited October 25, 2022 by CKSteeler

[CKSteeler]

On 10/23/2022 at 8:34 PM, KhanYouDigIt said:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/game/_/gameId/401220149
 

would you say Gardner played good this game

I would say that you are far more likely to make excuses for Trevor Lawrence the next time the Jaguars get routed because he was the shiny new #1 draft pick, and Minshew was just a guy who was never supposed to be any good in the first place. There are a whole lot of games I could cherry pick from the last 1.5 seasons of Lawrence's career that were just as lopsided as that beatdown, and Lawrence doesn't even look respectable on paper.

[KhanYouDigIt]

5 minutes ago, CKSteeler said:

I would say that you are far more likely to make excuses for Trevor Lawrence the next time the Jaguars get routed because he was the shiny new #1 draft pick, and Minshew was just a guy who was never supposed to be any good in the first place. There are a whole lot of games I could cherry pick from the last 1.5 seasons of Lawrence's career that were just as lopsided as that beatdown, and Lawrence doesn't even look respectable on paper.

You didn’t answer my question 

[CKSteeler]

6 minutes ago, KhanYouDigIt said:

You didn’t answer my question 

I like that I'm the one being called obtuse in a thread where I'm arguing with someone who is isolating one blow-out defeat to try to prove some point. But no, I typically wouldn't say that a QB who was on the other end of a beatdown played well. The entire Jaguars team was overwhelmed. 

It's like none of you can even for a moment stop and consider that maybe you guys are judging players by different standards, and in one instance you look for any reason to be optimistic and in the other you looked for any reason to trash a guy.

[notthatbluestuff]

12 minutes ago, KhanYouDigIt said:

You didn’t answer my question 

We'll get there @KhanYouDigIt- we'll get there. The season is young.

[CKSteeler]

So what I'm basically being told here is that stats don't matter. Wins don't matter. Points scored don't even seem to matter. What matters is the mythical eye test...only you can't even point to all these wonderful plays where Lawrence is just doing anything special. 

He completed that 4th and 15. Was a nice throw...and came after he would have thrown the game away on first down if not for a weak penalty on the backside DB.