State of the Steelers

[warfelg]

2 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I might be off base on this idea, so correct me if I'm wrong. I would say, even if Fields doesn't improve a lot, he's still better than Kenny. His "average" seems better than Kenny's and his "elite" is way better than Kenny's. Arm talent wise but also his athleticism is so much better. Our run game would instantly be improved with a dual threat QB. Even one who wasn't the best passer in the game. Now, is that good enough to win a SB? Doubtful, but like @warfelg said, there isn't a whole lot of other ways to get someone like that. I won't be broken hearted if we don't get him, but I'd be pretty excited if we did. Just to make the games more enjoyable. 

Exactly! This is where I’m at. End of the day, even production swap, Fields would be worth 1 more TD a game than Kenny. 24ppg from the offense as opposed to 17. With our defense at 19ppg that makes us very dangerous. 
 

The other part, watching some of Smiths offense in Tennessee he’s very run, PA deep, TE seam kinda guy. I believe Justin has the arm for that. We know Kenny doesn’t as he throws deep floaters. 

[rlon]

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

Exactly! This is where I’m at. End of the day, even production swap, Fields would be worth 1 more TD a game than Kenny. 24ppg from the offense as opposed to 17. With our defense at 19ppg that makes us very dangerous. 
 

The other part, watching some of Smiths offense in Tennessee he’s very run, PA deep, TE seam kinda guy. I believe Justin has the arm for that. We know Kenny doesn’t as he throws deep floaters. 

Disagree…Kenny needs to step up and use better footwork, more confidence in himself and the line would help in that respect. His arm would be fine…with proper mechanics and if he stops bailing from the pocket. Cleaner pockets regularly would help IMO.

[MOSteelers56]

39 minutes ago, rlon said:

with proper mechanics and if he stops bailing from the pocket.

He's been a big bail from the pocket guy even at his time in college. That might just be who he is. 

[rlon]

3 hours ago, MOSteelers56 said:

He's been a big bail from the pocket guy even at his time in college. That might just be who he is. 

Yeah, I just think he has the guts and desire to overcome that, but not without an improved line. Somewhere along the line people started to think a QB shows his ceiling by 2 seasons...in a more recent phenomenon that has been the case with a few QBs, before that very infrequent since Marino. 

[43M]

6 hours ago, warfelg said:

I’m curious on how so. Like, I feel like most of us that wouldn’t mind trading for him feel like he has more upside than Kenny, and that slim chance exception is worth it because we don’t feel Kenny is able to do that, and see limited options the next few years. 
 

And IMO I don’t feel like I’m overrating his upside. I think there’s way too much fixation on some saying like he’s a hidden star or something. I mean the fact is as a passer it’s about neck and neck with Kenny and as a runner/athlete he’s heads and shoulders better. I just don’t know what you can say about that other than their floors are similar right now and Fields ceiling is higher. 

I dont necessarily disagree with your assessment here.

I guess where we disagree is regarding how valuable that actually is relative to what we currently have.

I guess it depends on what your goals are too.

[43M]

6 hours ago, jebrick said:

As I said, for a 3rd or 4th rounder, I would do it

I could live with it...but I think a bidding war in that range could drive the cost up to a 2nd.  

And for that price....the Bears might just be better off waiting until draft day or even later to trade him.

[jebrick]

The Steelers do not NEED Fields so make your offer and then let the Bears decide.

[warfelg]

26 minutes ago, 43M said:

I dont necessarily disagree with your assessment here.

I guess where we disagree is regarding how valuable that actually is relative to what we currently have.

I guess it depends on what your goals are too.

This is the way I think of value, would I rather have Joe Melton or the Tulane QB who both need development or have Fields who would surely compete with Kenny and maybe beat him out. 
 

And for me the goal is, if we’re some parts and a QB away, give yourself options at the QB position who have upside (fields) rather than a floor (Tannehill). 

[43M]

6 hours ago, warfelg said:

This is the way I think of value, would I rather have Joe Melton or the Tulane QB who both need development or have Fields who would surely compete with Kenny and maybe beat him out. 
 

And for me the goal is, if we’re some parts and a QB away, give yourself options at the QB position who have upside (fields) rather than a floor (Tannehill). 

Fair enough.   The way I look at it is...

We just spent a first round pick on Kenny 2 years ago, who is looking like a major bust.   Now, we are talking about trading for another QB, who, while better than Kenny, has alot of flaws and isnt looking like a franchise caliber QB.   So the question becomes, how much is that worth?

Thats why I mentioned goals, too.

Is your goal to have a more dynamic and potentially exciting offense on any given week?   If so, I can understand why you would give up more than I would.

Is your goal finding a long term franchise QB en route to becoming a championship caliber team?     Thats my goal, and I dont believe Fields holds nearly as much value there.

I understand these goals aren't necessarily mutually exclusive and can both be goals at the same time, but Fields is a case where I think he can make our offense notably better (sometimes), but isnt good enough to take us much further in terms of being a potential SB contender.

And that's ultimately why I wouldn't trade much for him.

[bigben07MVP]

14 hours ago, 43M said:

I could live with it...but I think a bidding war in that range could drive the cost up to a 2nd.  

And for that price....the Bears might just be better off waiting until draft day or even later to trade him.

Who is getting into a bidding war for Fields? Several reports out there that the market for him is much, much lower than expected. 

The Bears are in somewhat of a pickle and I don’t think Poles has handled this particularly well so far. Everyone and their mother knows they are taking Caleb and trading Fields AND they have already said publicly that they want to do right by Fields and get this done sooner rather than later. So, they have basically put their cards on the table for the world to see and eliminated the possibilities of a) just keeping both Fields and Caleb or b) holding on to Fields until pre-season until a team who loses a QB gets desperate. 

So…if the market for Fields isn’t what they’re expecting what do they do? You almost can’t hold on to him past the draft. And you can’t go back on your word and keep them both. Do they end up settling for a couple of day 3 picks? I’m not saying that will happen, but I wouldn’t be shocked with how things have played out so far. 

[warfelg]

8 hours ago, 43M said:

Fair enough.   The way I look at it is...

We just spent a first round pick on Kenny 2 years ago, who is looking like a major bust.   Now, we are talking about trading for another QB, who, while better than Kenny, has alot of flaws and isnt looking like a franchise caliber QB.   So the question becomes, how much is that worth?

Thats why I mentioned goals, too.

Is your goal to have a more dynamic and potentially exciting offense on any given week?   If so, I can understand why you would give up more than I would.

Is your goal finding a long term franchise QB en route to becoming a championship caliber team?     Thats my goal, and I dont believe Fields holds nearly as much value there.

I understand these goals aren't necessarily mutually exclusive and can both be goals at the same time, but Fields is a case where I think he can make our offense notably better (sometimes), but isnt good enough to take us much further in terms of being a potential SB contender.

And that's ultimately why I wouldn't trade much for him.

I can respect this. To you it’s more a what’s the right value, for me it’s take a shot since I don’t believe in our current guy. 

[warfelg]

Sounds like reports are a Fields trade to Atlanta is being finalized. 

However there’s also reports that Atlanta prefers Mayfield or Cousins much more over Fields. 

[Ward4HOF]

5 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Sounds like reports are a Fields trade to Atlanta is being finalized. 

However there’s also reports that Atlanta prefers Mayfield or Cousins much more over Fields. 

Yeah, I guess Tony Pauline is reporting that it's pretty much a done deal; it's just a matter of when it will be announced.

For me, I really hope this is the end of any speculation about us trading for/signing a FA QB, and just let's build the offense around Pickett, and see where that takes us.

Now...for my TL; DR opinion...

 

I get that Fields is more exciting as a runner, but Kenny showed flashes his rookie season, of being able to run, as well.  I almost wonder if he was instructed, under no certain circumstances, are you to run the ball, essentially forcing him to throw, regardless what the defense shows you. 

I really hope Smith is unable to unlock the best of what Pickett has to offer. I think he's shown a capability to be a starting QB in this league, especially, in his rookie season. I think he threw a 'better ball' his rookie season, than this past year, but I think that might have had been due to forcing him to be something he is not.

I think, if (and I'm not even saying it's a more likely 'if'), but, if, the offense is built around his strengths, and if the QB coaching accentuates his strengths, while simultaneously attempting to avoid trying to make him do things that are not his strengths, that we have the offensive tools to 'mask' some of these issues.

Between Muth and Washington, Najee and Jaylen, and Pickens (and maybe, even a WR like Keon Coleman--big-bodied that can contort his body to poorly thrown passes, like Pickens),we can win with our offense, assuming all key pieces of our defense remain healthy, and perform as we know they can (I mean, heck, we had the actual DPOY last season, not what the award has become the PFF-Analytic-Pass-Rusher of the Year (PFFAPROY).

I fully believe we can be successful in the Post-Season with Pickett at the helm, even if he's a bottom-half-of-the-league-QB...

Purdy, Garoppolo, Grossman, Dilfer, etc....  I'm not saying it's easy, or even, preferable to try, just that it's not unheard of, and right now, there are no descent options to us, to trade for, or in FA, that won't expire in the next 2 years (Wilson, Cousins, Tannehill...)  And in the Draft, unless TomKhan believe McCarthy can surpass Kenny as a Franchise QB, we're better using our draft assets to build around Kenny, the best we can...or...I'm in the minority, or actually, of a singular opinion here, that we should trade up for Daniels (not Maye).  I think Daniels is an above average passing 'Fields'...

[AFF]

11 minutes ago, Ward4HOF said:

I fully believe we can be successful in the Post-Season with Pickett at the helm, even if he's a bottom-half-of-the-league-QB...

Purdy, Garoppolo, Grossman, Dilfer, etc....  I'm not saying it's easy, or even, preferable to try, just that it's not unheard of, and right now, there are no descent options to us, to trade for, or in FA, that won't expire in the next 2 years (Wilson, Cousins, Tannehill...)  And in the Draft, unless TomKhan believe McCarthy can surpass Kenny as a Franchise QB, we're better using our draft assets to build around Kenny, the best we can...or...I'm in the minority, or actually, of a singular opinion here, that we should trade up for Daniels (not Maye).  I think Daniels is an above average passing 'Fields'...

You can’t win in the playoffs consistently with a bottom half of the NFL type QB…in your examples you had to go back to the mid 2000s for Grossman/Dilfer and Purdy/Garopallo can’t get over the hump.

Any franchise QB attempt(whether trade or draft) needs to have top 5-7 QB upside.

Im not sure Fields is a Franchise QB…but his UPSIDE is.

I understand being hesitant about him but also DONT understand how people don’t see the huge risk of trading say 5-6 insanely high draft picks for Daniels(who I’m even a fan of).

[Ward4HOF]

1 minute ago, AFF said:

I understand being hesitant about him but also DONT understand how people don’t see the huge risk of trading say 5-6 insanely high draft picks for Daniels(who I’m even a fan of).

LOL...Which is why I specifically stated, that I am of the SINGULAR opinion on trading for Daniels.  And you are right, it would be a huge risk.

As far as winning with a lesser-talent QB, well, sure, it's unlikely, but not impossible, with the right defense.  Heck, we made it with O'Donnell, but yes, back in the 90s...

Sadly, I think we are potentially built to go deep into the playoffs, but are a legit QB short of making it happen.  If we want to put all of our eggs in one basket...meaning, 'go big, or go home'...we should probably go the Wilson route; I don't trust Cousins to NOT be gingerly on that Achilles for quite some time before he trusts it completely.  But back to Wilson, he's likely the ONLY shot we have of getting to the SB this season, but we are far from fixed longterm, by going that route.  I know he believes he'll play for 5 more seasons, and go to the SB a couple of more times in that window, but IMO, it's this season, or maybe, 2025, but I wouldn't trust him after that.