State of the Steelers

[Chieferific]

3 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Personal trainer/coach with a focus on footwork. Works with DBs and WRs, most notably for us Diontae Johnson. 

This is big, for me at least, because I do not take Pickens as a very serious person. I don't like to make assumptions about workout habits on guys based on social media clips, but I don't remember seeing any from him before. And that doesn't mean much, but when you pair that with rumors that he didn't know about Matt Canada's monday firing until Wednesday when he was back in the building I question how interested he is in football. 

So for me, seeing a dude go work on the biggest negative in his game so far and to do it in a year that he is going to be the unquestioned top dog on a team stocking up on 4's and 5's....i think this clip was awesome. 

Seeing him work on his craft is definitely a good sign. I just didn't know anything about this "Route God" and if he had a track record of significantly improving players' route running. 

[jebrick]

3 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Personal trainer/coach with a focus on footwork. Works with DBs and WRs, most notably for us Diontae Johnson. 

This is big, for me at least, because I do not take Pickens as a very serious person. I don't like to make assumptions about workout habits on guys based on social media clips, but I don't remember seeing any from him before. And that doesn't mean much, but when you pair that with rumors that he didn't know about Matt Canada's monday firing until Wednesday when he was back in the building I question how interested he is in football. 

So for me, seeing a dude go work on the biggest negative in his game so far and to do it in a year that he is going to be the unquestioned top dog on a team stocking up on 4's and 5's....i think this clip was awesome. 

Just MHO but I think there was some serious ill temper on the team with Canada and for the WR because of the QB play.  i think last year was as close to Tomlin losing the team as ever happened.

[Dcash4]

49 minutes ago, jebrick said:

Just MHO but I think there was some serious ill temper on the team with Canada and for the WR because of the QB play.  i think last year was as close to Tomlin losing the team as ever happened.

I agree, that's also why I think a lot of this mass exodus of "ill-tempered" players this off-season was nonsense. Players were stuck with Matt Canada for 3 years and bad QB play for longer. They got frustrated. Had it not been for frustrations, Canada might have finished the year....Canada was a cancer that needed removed before it spread. 

But we have seen George Picken's giving less than full effort on practice videos and rumors like not knowing your OC got fired don't help fit a dude who is concentrating fully on being the best NFL player he can be. For a team that needs him to be a true 1 and is staring down the barrel of a $30M+ extension, I really hope that he is trying to earn that. 

 

Edited May 13 by Dcash4

[AFF]

38 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

I agree, that's also why I think a lot of this mass exodus of "ill-tempered" players this off-season was nonsense. Players were stuck with Matt Canada for 3 years and bad QB play for longer. They got frustrated. Had it not been for frustrations, Canada might have finished the year....Canada was a cancer that needed removed before it spread. 

But we have seen George Picken's giving less than full effort on practice videos and rumors like not knowing your OC got hired don't help fit a dude who is concentrating fully on being the best NFL player he can be. For a team that needs him to be a true 1 and is staring down the barrel of a $30M+ extension, I really hope that he is trying to earn that. 

 

I think he realizes this is his year to prove what he is…he realizes he’s staring down what is likely to be close to a $100 mill deal if he takes a big step this year.

Now there then lies the rub that it took him 3 years to get to that point but it is what it is.

[warfelg]

1 minute ago, AFF said:

Now there then lies the rub that it took him 3 years to get to that point but it is what it is.

Agreed.  Like he was reportedly very immature coming out of Georgia, that it’s encouraging to see these steps forward, but it becomes a question of if this maturation is purely about the contract or about actual personal development.

I would er onto the side of its actual development. But If I were Kahn, I’d still want to do something that has an out after year 2 of a new contract for him in case this is a blip and not actual development. That way if he reverts you can easily move on.

[Ward4HOF]

7 minutes ago, AFF said:

I think he realizes this is his year to prove what he is…he realizes he’s staring down what is likely to be close to a $100 mill deal if he takes a big step this year.

Now there then lies the rub that it took him 3 years to get to that point but it is what it is.

Two years--He was drafted just two years ago...and add in the fact he just turned 23 a couple of months ago.  I think some forget that he's still younger than most of our draft picks THIS year.

I feel that Pickens should be given the benefit of the doubt, considering he's had to play with three different QBs, spread sporadically, over those two years, with not a single one being a starter quality NFL QB.

[AFF]

9 minutes ago, Ward4HOF said:

Two years--He was drafted just two years ago...and add in the fact he just turned 23 a couple of months ago.  I think some forget that he's still younger than most of our draft picks THIS year.

I feel that Pickens should be given the benefit of the doubt, considering he's had to play with three different QBs, spread sporadically, over those two years, with not a single one being a starter quality NFL QB.

I meant it has he’s going into his 3rd year in the NfL…his 3rd TC, his 3rd preseason etc etc.

Thats why it’s notable to bring up the fact he’s looking at a $100 mill deal 9 months from now if everything goes right and the timing of this.

I know he’s very talented…it’s just a valid question.

[AFF]

11 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Agreed.  Like he was reportedly very immature coming out of Georgia, that it’s encouraging to see these steps forward, but it becomes a question of if this maturation is purely about the contract or about actual personal development.

I would er onto the side of its actual development. But If I were Kahn, I’d still want to do something that has an out after year 2 of a new contract for him in case this is a blip and not actual development. That way if he reverts you can easily move on.

I mean yea…let say he has a pretty good year with 10+ TDs, no supposed “maturity” issues etc etc…I have no problem going 4/$110 mill with half guaranteed if it’s mostly a clean slate after year 2 save for the signing bonus cap hit.

[Ward4HOF]

4 minutes ago, AFF said:

I meant it has he’s going into his 3rd year in the NfL…his 3rd TC, his 3rd preseason etc etc.

Thats why it’s notable to bring up the fact he’s looking at a $100 mill deal 9 months from now if everything goes right and the timing of this.

I know he’s very talented…it’s just a valid question.

It's just the way you worded it, that "it took him 3 years to get to that point".  after, you mentioned that he 'realizes'--present tense.  So yeah, he 'realizes', right after he turns 23, after 2 years of training camp, and 2 years in the NFL, that he needs to show he's worth that $100+M contract.

My point being, that heck, he could have followed the same route that a goodly number of draft picks this year in the NFL--wait 5 years to come out, at age 23.  While he may be a bit immature, well, heck, who isn't at age 23.  This doesn't just speak to GP, just NFL players, in general. I don't think he's any more immature than the average 23 YO NFL player, and now, at age 23, making the decision to really put in the extra effort to set himself apart, and be that #1 WR--and the example, and leadership, and yes, the maturity that comes with being in that role.

I personally feel he's developed 'on time' with what one should expect a WR to be, coming into his just 3rd year in the league, and again, to not yet, have been actually paired up with a starting-caliber, NFL QB, up to this point.

So yes, it's good to see; I personally, just wouldn't have expected it to see him arrive at this point any sooner than he did, especially, considering Diontae was who he had to look to, as a #1 WR on the team. 

I'm excited for him, this season, and assuming he remains healthy, wouldn't be surprised to see him eclipse 1400 yds, and 10 TDs, even in this 'run first/play-action' system.  If he does, then I'd have no problem with Khan opening up the checkbook, to give him that $30M per contract.

[jebrick]

1 hour ago, Dcash4 said:

I agree, that's also why I think a lot of this mass exodus of "ill-tempered" players this off-season was nonsense. Players were stuck with Matt Canada for 3 years and bad QB play for longer. They got frustrated. Had it not been for frustrations, Canada might have finished the year....Canada was a cancer that needed removed before it spread.

 

I think Tomlin lashed out from frustration and players bitching.  The players that gave up on their teammates were sent packing.  I can't argue with that logic.

[Dcash4]

12 minutes ago, Ward4HOF said:

While he may be a bit immature, well, heck, who isn't at age 23

It's not the immaturity that bothers me. I don't care if after every catch he stops the game, grabs two fans out of the field, whips out a table and has a tea party for a 3 yard gain. It's the effort I question. And there are plays allllll over real games like this:

 

And this is half-a word internet research stuff that took 2 seconds on twitter. It's not that you can't find awesome blocking clips of his, but I really don't want to be questioning the effort of a guy that I am about to pay $120M w/ $60M guaranteed. 

And that's the big thing. AB was always a quirky guy -- no one questioned his work ethic or his effort on field. DJ, from all reports, was one of the hardest workers in the building and in the off-season. 

Like this stuff is bad:

If they do an extension next year, I'd imagine his team pushes for 2 years guaranteed which would put us at 2028 before the first clean cut available. That's a lot of gambling on him just finding jesus in the effort department. 

I would love nothing more than for this to be the turning point on effort, which is why I was so excited to see an off-season clip from him with Routegod....but immaturity and effort are two different things. You can be immature and give all your effort. 

 

[warfelg]

14 minutes ago, jebrick said:

I think Tomlin lashed out from frustration and players bitching.  The players that gave up on their teammates were sent packing.  I can't argue with that logic.

Which to me is something this team historically and currently continues to get right:

Coach over players not players over coach.  Players and production can always be replaced.  

[warfelg]

3 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

It's not the immaturity that bothers me. [...] It's the effort I question.

If you disagree fine, but there's legitimacy in seeing these as one in the same. It's immature to give up when things aren't going your way, not take practice seriously, etc; but it's also lack of effort.  Someone more mature doesn't lack that effort.

I cant remember if it was Locked On or Steelers depot but they made a good point of this has been a consistent thing about Steelers WR's since the "Young Money Crew" of Wallace, Brown, Sanders to have maturity/effort issues.  Even before that Plaxico had his issues as a rookie, but Hines was able to get in his ear and somewhat correct him, and Holmes had the weed issue that got him shipped out of town.

[Ward4HOF]

21 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

And this is half-a word internet research stuff that took 2 seconds on twitter. It's not that you can't find awesome blocking clips of his, but I really don't want to be questioning the effort of a guy that I am about to pay $120M w/ $60M guaranteed. 

...and coming straight from a tweet you quoted...

"They have a leadership, culture and coaching issue. "

Which is why I pointed out that it's not surprising, for, at the time, to have a year 2, 22 YO WR, with Diontae as his #1 WR example, to have immaturity issues...like not putting forth full effort. 

"Tomlin refused to discipline Johnson’s poor attitude and lack of effort... "

So he's learned, BEFORE his 3rd year in the league, and realizing, the opportunity he now has, with Diontae gone, to be turning things around.

And again, my original point, was simply, it didn't take him 3 years to figure it out...it took him 2 years, (hopefully, we'll see as TC and the season wears on), that if he wants #1 WR money, he needs to mature, and it looks like, he's taking the right steps.

 

Edited May 13 by Ward4HOF

[Dcash4]

42 minutes ago, warfelg said:

legitimacy in seeing these as one in the same.

Someone more mature doesn't lack that effort.

Maybe? But there is also no correlation between one and the other. You can add age into that too, which is in this conversation. A year older does not make you more mature just as becoming mature will not make you give better effort. 

You made the bold above as a definitive statement -- but being mature doesn't mean you automatically are giving effort. Just because you don't egg houses anymore as an adult doesn't mean you are logging in at 9:00 PM to finish work emails each day. Going back to AB, loneybin of a guy that he was, effort was never the question. Throw a cooler on the sideline in frustration? Absolutely. That's immaturity. Give 100% to all his routes, practice, and off-season? Yes, and that's effort. 

They are not one in the same. 

Effort and work ethic, I find, are usually things people have ingrained into them. It's the difference between always pushing yourself to be the best you can be vs doing enough to get by. It's a sales person not leaving at 5:00 because they want to make 5 extra calls to get a sale or Pickens going all out on a dig where he is 3rd or 4th in the progression. 

34 minutes ago, Ward4HOF said:

...and coming straight from a tweet you quoted...

"They have a leadership, culture and coaching issue. "

Things you can control vs things you can't control. Every coach and boss I have ever had says these types of things. He couldn't control his situation, he could control his effort. 

There are guys on that offense that gave their effort despite the same situation. If you are saying it was impossible for him to give better effort due to the circumstances than we have bigger problems. 

35 minutes ago, Ward4HOF said:

that if he wants #1 WR money, he needs to mature

And here is the rub hence my pushback to your effort/maturity part. 

To EARN that money, he does need to improve his maturity and effort. 

....he doesn't have to continue once he gets that payment.