Week 6 MNF: Broncos @ Chargers

[ET80]

22 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

All of a sudden Robinson is washed, or maybe Stafford is force feeding Kupp. Have the #1 pass blocking oline, Akers and Higbee arent chopped liver. 

- Yes, Robinson is washed. He’s a significant downgrade from Robert Woods at this point. 

- Cite your source on the pass block ranking. In addition, Joe Noteboom is out for the season with an Achilles injury. So to your original point, yes they are missing their #1LT (who was already replacing Andrew Withworth, their previous #1LT)

- Cam Akers? You mean the one lost his starting job? The one who is about to be cut or traded? That guy? Woof. C’mon man, don’t prove me right:
 

38 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Tell me you don’t know anything about any team without saying you don’t know anything about any team.

 

22 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

Chiefs have #2 pass blocking oline, best TE, CEH is having a good season, MVS and JuJu arent chopped liver either. And no where near USFL players.

- Cite your source on the OL.

- CEH is still a poor mans’ Ekeler, even with his 1-2 good games (talk about letting one game frame a view - I thought we weren’t doing that?)

- MVS and Juju absolutely are not good. Just saying “they’re not chopped liver” doesn’t sudden validate this point. Juju was good that one year when he was across from a top 3 WR, MVS was never good even when he was across from a top 3 WR, but suddenly they’re good now? Stop. Just stop. WR is absolutely the biggest need for KC.

22 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

Ravens also top 3 TE, also better pass block oline, 2 speedsters in Bateman and Duvernay. Outside the Rams all have better run games. 

- Cite the source on OL, pls.

- Bateman and Duvernay are fast, sure. Neither are as good as Mike Williams. Duvernay might be in the Josh Palmer range on his best day.

- Part of that run game being better is because Lamar creates the opportunity with his skillset. That has no bearing on his supporting cast, that run game would present itself on any team he played on.

[iknowcool]

13 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

All of a sudden Robinson is washed

Nothing is sudden about it.  He looked worse in his last year in Chicago too.  People were just quick to blame it on Chicago's QB struggles, which makes sense but clearly Robinson just isn't the guy he used to be either.  

[ET80]

9 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

Medicore results on 1 play? You ok? What are you even saying.

Mediocre results - full stop.

Does anyone have the Chargers as anything other than an offseason hype pick that fails to meet results again? When are these metric going to appear against playoff caliber opponents? Herbert can have the fancy numbers, but when does that translate to wins against opponents who aren’t picking top 10?

Beating bad teams and losing to good teams is mediocre, but that’s Herbert‘s MO to this point.

15 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

What other QB is without their LT, WR1, WR3, bottom 6 run game, with a rib injury and center in and out of lineup.. yet still producing at easily top 10 level in most every metric, 4-2 and tied at top of his division. With a underperforming defense still. 

If you’re looking for exact same scenarios, you’re not going to find them - but there are QBs doing more with less, even if you’re trying to frame their less as “not chopped liver”.

[Bearerofnews]

3 minutes ago, ET80 said:

- Yes, Robinson is washed. He’s a significant downgrade from Robert Woods at this point. 

- Cite your source on the pass block ranking. In addition, Joe Noteboom is out for the season with an Achilles injury. So to your original point, yes they are missing their #1LT (who was already replacing Andrew Withworth, their previous #1LT)

- Cam Akers? You mean the one lost his starting job? The one who is about to be cut or traded? That guy? Woof. C’mon man, don’t prove me right:
 

 

- Cite your source on the OL.

- CEH is still a poor mans’ Ekeler, even with his 1-2 good games (talk about letting one game frame a reference - I thought we weren’t doing that?)

- MVS and Juju absolutely are not good. Just saying “they’re not chopped liver” doesn’t sudden validate this point. Juju was good that one year when he was across from a top 3 WR, MVS was never good even when he was across from a top 3 WR, but suddenly they’re good now? Stop. Just stop. WR is absolutely the biggest need for KC.

- Cite the source on OL, pls.

- Bateman and Duvernay are fast, sure. Neither are as good as Mike Williams. Duvernay might be in the Josh Palmer range on his best day.

- Part of that run game being better is because Lamar creates the opportunity with his skillset. That has no bearing on his supporting cast, that run game would present itself on any team he played on.

Sorry was looking at 2021..

 

But for 2022... KC and Baltimore are 3 and 4..

Prior to Herbert, no one was putting Williams in their top 25 WRs.  

MVS and JuJu are both better than Palmer is right now, so is Duvernay and Bateman. Ask any Chargers fan. Palmer has been a huge disappointment.

All the QBs you named arent missing their #1 target since week 1. 

Ekeler is good in the passing game. Doesnt do much in the run game. Outside the Browns game. Chargers have a bottom 6 rush offense even with that monster game vs the Browns.

"Washed Robinson" is better than a missing Keenan.

Lamar and Mahomes have top 4 TEs and Stafford has top 3 WR.

 

We acting like Stafford has been good this year? We acting like Lamar didnt just lose his team the game with a lead to the Giants.

 

we acting like Mahomes hasnt thrown ints to lose the game in both their losses.

 

all while again, HAVING their guys in the lineup, being without a significant injury (Stafford i believe maybe still has the shoulder injury?), with superior coaching and outside the Rams much better pass blocking olines. 

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34536376/2022-nfl-pass-rushing-run-stopping-blocking-leaderboard-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams

[Bearerofnews]

1 minute ago, ET80 said:

Mediocre results - full stop.

What medicore results? There is 4 teams with better records and all have significantly better defenses. All top 11 in scoring to Chargers 26th.

 

I know this is solely based on this year, because i guarantee prior to this year you didnt have this asinine illogical take. So if the stats dont matter and the record doesnt, 6 weeks in. What results?

1 minute ago, ET80 said:

Does anyone have the Chargers as anything other than an offseason hype pick that fails to meet results again? When are these metric going to appear against playoff caliber opponents? Herbert can have the fancy numbers, but when does that translate to wins against opponents who aren’t picking top 10?

Herbert is 6-8 vs Playoff teams

With 66.1% comp

4221 yds, 7.7 ypa, 35 tds, 11 ints 102 passer rating, 205 rushing yds and 4 rushing tfs.

1 minute ago, ET80 said:

Beating bad teams and losing to good teams is mediocre, but that’s Herbert‘s MO to this point.

They have played 1 good team this year. He had a winning record vs playoff teams last year and if not for Staley being wreckless in the KC and LV games would of been 7-2 vs playoff teams. 

1 minute ago, ET80 said:

If you’re looking for exact same scenarios, you’re not going to find them - but there are QBs doing more with less, even if you’re trying to frame their less as “not chopped liver”.

No they arent though. The situaton you painted for Herbert was his team at full strength. Not current state.

[ET80]

21 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

Sorry was looking at 2021..

 

But for 2022... KC and Baltimore are 3 and 4..

This same list has Houston, Atlanta and Pittsburgh in the top 10 in pass block win rate, so I’m going to question what data they’re using to come to this conclusion.

It’s not a correct assessment.
 

21 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

Prior to Herbert, no one was putting Williams in their top 25 WRs.  

He was once the 7th pick in the NFL draft, so people knew he was good - did he need someone other than “Popgun” Phillip Rivers as his QB? Looks like it.

21 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

MVS and JuJu are both better than Palmer is right now, so is Duvernay and Bateman. Ask any Chargers fan. Palmer has been a huge disappointment.

This doesn’t suddenly mean MVS/Juju/Bateman/Duvernay are good at what they do. It just means they’re on a similar level as a guy who projects out to be a #4 for LAC. 

21 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

"Washed Robinson" is better than a missing Keenan.

No, because Keenan is coming back. Washed Robinson is still going to be Washed.

21 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

We acting like Stafford has been good this year?

He lost a lot more than Herbert did - two starting LTs and his 2/3 WRs are gone (Woods and Beckham). If we’re giving Herbert a pass on guys he doesn’t have, it’s only fair to do the same for Stafford.

21 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

We acting like Lamar didnt just lose his team the game with a lead to the Giants.

He’s also won some pretty significant games with his arm, against great teams. That gets him in the discussion (and don’t look now, but the Giants are likely a very good team - so if we’re making excuse for Herbert losing to good teams, we need to do the same for Jackson).

21 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

we acting like Mahomes hasnt thrown ints to lose the game in both their losses.

He’s also put up some MVP level performances against better teams than Houston and Denver.

21 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

all while again, HAVING their guys in the lineup, being without a significant injury (Stafford i believe maybe still has the shoulder injury?), with superior coaching and outside the Rams much better pass blocking

You’re looking to very specific benchmarks in a league where no two teams are identical - so yeah, you’re not going to find an EXACT match but you’ll see that each of these teams mentioned have flaws and a QB who has to overcome said flaw.

The guys I mention overcame these flaws against superior opponents. Herbert on the other hand has wins against LV, Houston, Cleveland and Denver - four teams that will be picking top 10.

Call me when Herbert has a win with substance, and I’ll consider your position. Until then, you really haven’t convinced me otherwise (on the contrary, you’ve made me look at other situations with a more detailed eye and actually strengthened my position).

[Bearerofnews]

18 minutes ago, ET80 said:

This same list has Houston, Atlanta and Pittsburgh in the top 10 in pass block win rate, so I’m going to question what data they’re using to come to this conclusion.

It’s not a correct assessment.

You can question it all you want. It's the truth. Pass block win rate is a universally used measure for oline play that uses time tracking of blocks being successful. 

18 minutes ago, ET80 said:

 

 

 

He was once the 7th pick in the NFL draft, so people knew he was good - did he need someone other than “Popgun” Phillip Rivers as his QB? Looks like it.

Same Rivers who was throwing for 7.9, 8.5, 7.8 and 7.7 YPA his last 4 years.

 

I guarantee if i go back and look at this sites very own positional rankings during the offseason, no way was Williams in the top 15. But now he is to push your weird agenda?

18 minutes ago, ET80 said:

This doesn’t suddenly mean MVS/Juju/Bateman/Duvernay are good at what they do. It just means they’re on a similar level as a guy who projects out to be a #4 for LAC. 

They are good. They arent scrubs at all and are all clearly better than Palmer who is our WR2 now, for several weeks. They have been productive and quality players. Again, you demoting them to push an agenda, doesnt make it true. 

18 minutes ago, ET80 said:

No, because Keenan is coming back. Washed Robinson is still going to be Washed.

 

But your crazy take isnt based on what is projected. It's based on now. Available washed Robinson >>> unavailable Keenan 

18 minutes ago, ET80 said:

He lost a lot more than Herbert did - two starting LTs and his 2/3 WRs are gone (Woods and Beckham). If we’re giving Herbert a pass on guys he doesn’t have, it’s only fair to do the same for Stafford.

Wait a minute. You are talking about what Stafford lost in the OFF SEASON? hollllllly fk.

Yeah this is where i tap out. I know i been gone for a few months. What the hell happened to you ET? Crazy times my man.

I am talking about losses during the season. Not off season when teams setup their roster and make moves to adjust for any losses.

 

18 minutes ago, ET80 said:

He’s also won some pretty significant games with his arm, against playoff caliber teams. That gets him in the discussion (and don’t look now, but the Giants are likely a playoff team - so if we’re making excuse for Herbert losing to playoff teams, we need to do the same for Jackson).

This year? vs who? Also you are the one drastically downgrading Herbert and not other QBs, based on your isolated 1 play criteria. 

18 minutes ago, ET80 said:

He’s also put up some MVP level performances against better teams than Houston and Denver.

Such as who? The struggling Bucs? 

18 minutes ago, ET80 said:

You’re looking to very specific benchmarks in a league where no two teams are identical - so yeah, you’re not going to find an EXACT match but you’ll see that each of these teams mentioned have flaws and a QB who has to overcome said flaw.

So the QB who is 4-2 hasnt overcome them? Who has top 6-8 numbers after a bad game vs what was the #1 pass defense at the time (prior to that game Herbert was top 4 in most every QB metric)

 

Still no examples of any QBs who have faced the same IN SEASON obstacles as Herbert.  Or even close and are still 4-2 with good numbers.

18 minutes ago, ET80 said:

The guys I mention overcame these flaws against superior opponents. Herbert on the other hand has wins against LV, Houston, Cleveland and Denver - four teams that will be picking top 10.

No they havent.  

18 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Call me when Herbert has a win with substance, and I’ll consider your position. Until then, you really haven’t convinced me otherwise (on the contrary, you’ve made me look at other situations with a more detailed eye and actually strengthened my position).

So you doubling down on the crazy illogical take? Hey, do you bud.  Do you!!!

Edited October 20, 2022 by Bearerofnews

[Chiefs_5627]

[ET80]

27 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

You can question it all you want. It's the truth. Pass block win rate is a universally used measure for oline play that uses time tracking of blocks being successful. 

Universally used… um, what universe? By who? It’s an ESPN stat (not even PFF or FO) so it’s as credible as their QBR stat (which is universally… hated).

27 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

I guarantee if i go back and look at this sites very own positional rankings during the offseason, no way was Williams in the top 15. But now he is to push your weird agenda?

You’re more than welcome to, but I’m certain that Williams would rate well ahead of every WR on KC and Baltimore - by a lot, too. If Williams isn’t top 15, Bateman/Duvernay/MVS/Juju aren’t top 30.

27 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

They are good.

No. They. Are. Not. 

Quit trying to will them into this designation. Bateman has upside that could be touched on in a few years, Juju has a year or two in Pitt that was exciting, but that’s the extent of it.

27 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

But you crazy take isnt based on what is projected. Its based on now. Available washed Robinson >>> unavailable Keenan 

Sometimes it’s addition by subtraction, and Robinson not on the field is better than Robinson on the field (it would probably increase the urgency to bring Odell Beckham Jr back).

27 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

I am talking about losses during the season. Not off season when teams setup their roster and make moves to adjust for any losses.

Fair. I’ll concede this.

As stated earlier, if you’re looking for ***-for-tat comparison, you’re not finding them. But the Rams have lost their starting LT, starting RB, starting C, WR 3 and Stafford is dealing with a shoulder injury.

That’s pretty ***-for-tat, IMO.

27 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

This year? vs who?

The 4-2 Jets, the 3-3 Patriots, the 3-3 Bengals.

27 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

Such as who? The struggling Bucs?

Struggling? They’re leading the NFCN. It might not be to the standard Tom Brady has set, but they’re out ahead in-division.

27 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

No they havent.  

Yes they have - at the least, they have wins against teams that are .500 or better, which isn’t something we can say about Herbert. Closest team to .500 that LAC beat was the 1-3-1 Texans (trust me, they’re not good).

27 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

So you doubling down on the crazy illogical take? 

You know where to find me.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

- Cite the source on OL, pls.

- Bateman and Duvernay are fast, sure. Neither are as good as Mike Williams. Duvernay might be in the Josh Palmer range on his best day.

- Part of that run game being better is because Lamar creates the opportunity with his skillset. That has no bearing on his supporting cast, that run game would present itself on any team he played on.

I'm only going to speak for the Ravens here, but our pass blocking has indeed been superb this year. I'm too lazy to go back to see who he was comparing our OL to, but we have to be among the top of the league in pass blocking success rate.

Agreed fully about Bateman and Duvernay. Even if Duvernay was a good WR, Lamar only has chemistry with Bateman and Mark Andrews so it doesn't even matter, he's just out there running routes for nothing.

And you are absolutely right about our run game. When we run "traditional" runs without the threat of Lamar doing something, we suck. When we suddenly use motions and read-options with Lamar, our run game goes off. Lamar is the reason we're able to run the ball (and our OL is blocking much better as of late, too).

[Bearerofnews]

16 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Universally used… by who? It’s an ESPN stat (not even PFF or FO) so it’s as credible as their QBR stat (which is universally hated).

By everyone. ESPN isnt a small outfit. QBR and PBWR 2 different metrics. PBWR is much more cut and dry. Hold block for 2.5+ secs = + success rate.

16 minutes ago, ET80 said:

You’re more than welcome to, but I’m certain that Williams would rate well ahead of every WR on KC and Baltimore - by a lot, too.

Kelce, Andrews, Kupp and Williams. Of current #1 receiving targets, who finishes last. PFF has 3 top 6. The other 58. Take a guess who.. 

16 minutes ago, ET80 said:

No. They. Are. Not. 

Yes they are. You referenced PFF. Go look at the 3 teams PFF rankings for top 3 current receiving options.

16 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Sometimes it’s addition by subtraction, and Robinson not on the field is better than Robinson on the field (it would probably increase the urgency to bring Odell Beckham Jr back).

This is a bunch of webbing. 

16 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Fair. I’ll concede this.

As stated earlier, if you’re looking for ***-for-tat comparison, you’re not finding them. But the Rams have lost their starting LT, starting RB, starting C, WR 3 and Stafford is dealing with a shoulder injury.

That’s pretty ***-for-tat, IMO.

Agree to disagree

16 minutes ago, ET80 said:

The 4-2 Jets, the 3-3 Patriots, the 3-3 Bengals.

If these are good teams.. then i suspect 4-2 Chargers are good.. with a much worse defense... so then seems like Herbert's results arent "bad". Tied for 5th best record. So still confused on the bad results bit.

16 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Struggling? They’re leading the NFCN. It might not be to the standard Tom Brady has set, but they’re out ahead in-division.

No one in that div has a winning record.

16 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Yes they have - at the least, they have wins against teams that are .500 or better, which isn’t something we can say about Herbert.

You know where to find me.

6 games in.  We really using this as a barometer? 

 

I miss the old ET, straight from the 'Go ET

Chop up the soul ET, set on his goals ET

I hate the new ET, the bad mood ET

[ET80]

1 minute ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

I'm only going to speak for the Ravens here, but our pass blocking has indeed been superb this year. I'm too lazy to go back to see who he was comparing our OL to, but we have to be among the top of the league in pass blocking success rate.

I’m now questioning the source outright, because the Texans aren’t a top 10 pass blocking unit (as that ESPN list stated).

[Bearerofnews]

5 minutes ago, ET80 said:

I’m now questioning the source outright, because the Texans aren’t a top 10 pass blocking unit (as that ESPN list stated).

Seems more like a Mills issue than the oline.

 

 

[ET80]

1 minute ago, Bearerofnews said:

I hate the new ET, the bad mood ET

I’m in a great mood, actually - Jack Easterby was fired, Astros are doing well, just celebrated my birthday - so everything is looking up for me.

I just don’t agree that Herbert is top 5. Top 10, sure - I amended my statement and said I’m not factoring in the things you’re bringing up. He’s top 10, but off the top of my head I’m considering these guys ahead of him:

1. Allen

2. Mahomes 

3. Jackson

4. Burrow

5. Hurts

It’s a fluid list, and Herbert is probably closer to 6 than he is 10 - but it can’t be all numbers, he’s got to make a play in a heated game against a good team to get higher on the list.

[Bearerofnews]

1 minute ago, ET80 said:

I’m in a great mood, actually - Jack Easterby was fired, Astros are doing well, just celebrated my birthday - so everything is looking up for me.

I just don’t agree that Herbert is top 5. Top 10, sure - I amended my statement and said I’m not factoring in the things you’re bringing up. He’s top 10, but off the top of my head I’m considering these guys ahead of him:

1. Allen

2. Mahomes 

3. Jackson

4. Burrow

5. Hurts

It’s a fluid list, and Herbert is probably closer to 6 than he is 10 - but it can’t be all numbers, he’s got to make a play in a heated game against a good team to get higher on the list.

This is more fair. I dont necessarily agree with it.. but has more legs for sure. Guess we'll see as the season progresses.