Who is higher on your All Time List? Dan Marino or John Elway?

[biggie.]

1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

MIA defensive rankings by year (DVOA - much more accurate than scoring D):

1983: 16
1984: 21
1985: 19
1986: 27
1987: 28
1988: 28
1989: 28
1990: 10
1991: 28
1992: 14
1993: 22
1994: 12
1995: 23
1996: 23
1997: 28
1998: 1 (!)
1999: 8

It certainly was a cruel twist of fate that Marino's last great year as a passer (1997) was followed by the one year the Dolphins D was elite. Marino fell off pretty substantially his final two seasons. 

Cool.

Last time I checked football is determined by points scored.

[biggie.]

14 minutes ago, Steelersfan43 said:

If you look at the rushing yards on offense and defense for the Dolphins in most of the playoffs loss with Marino,it was crazy the huge difference.I don't think Joe Montana would been much better in this condition

 

Outside of the rookie year of Marino in 1983,the difference for the rushing yards was so crazy in playoffs loss of the Dolphins under Marino.Look at this

 

 

211-25

255-68

182-33

202-26

341-70

250-14

257-21

 

Miami Dolphins Playoff History | Pro-Football-Reference.com

 

It was the rushing yards in 7 of the 10 playoffs loss of the Dolphins with Marino

I mean, Marino apologists love playing the "football is a team sport" but then conveniently ignore how bad Marino played in the playoffs.

The most laughable one was when he could only muster 14 points against NE in the 1986 AFC Championship. That NE team had zero business being in the Super Bowl.

[MWil23]

Marino and it’s not even close

[Steelersfan43]

9 minutes ago, biggie. said:

I mean, Marino apologists love playing the "football is a team sport" but then conveniently ignore how bad Marino played in the playoffs.

The most laughable one was when he could only muster 14 points against NE in the 1986 AFC Championship. That NE team had zero business being in the Super Bowl.

This is very hard to win for a QB when the opponents have almost 200 rushings yards more that your team,no matter against who

[HerbertGOAT]

2 hours ago, biggie. said:

Myth: Dan Marino had no defense.

Cold, Hard Football Facts: Marino played 17 seasons in the NFL. Twice, he had the luxury of playing with the league's No. 1 scoring defense: his rookie year of 1983 (15.6 points per game), and again in 1998 (16.6 points per game). That's a pretty enviable ratio in a league that had 28 and then 30 teams in Marino's playing days.

Consider this: Terry Bradshaw played 14 seasons in Pittsburgh and won four Super Bowls. The famed Steel Curtain defense that he played with led the league in scoring just twice in those 14 years. Of Bradshaw's four title teams, only one boasted the league's best scoring defense.

In Marino's record-setting 1984 season, the Dolphins had the No. 1 scoring offense in football and the No. 6 scoring defense (18.6 points per game). The 1990 Dolphins, meanwhile, boasted the league's No. 4 scoring defense, surrendering just 15.1 points per game.

There's no doubt Marino played with some poor defenses in his day, but that's the price of playing in the league 17 years. But the Cold, Hard Football Facts show that he also played with several defenses more than strong enough to win Super Bowls.

So he had the luxury of playing with the league's #1 scoring defense as a rookie, and one year before he retired? that's your "gotcha" moment? you're just gonna throw away the numerous 20-26 finishes for his actual prime?

Bradshaw's top scoring defenses came in 1976 and 1978. This was in the midst of an 8-year run where their defense finished outside of the top 10 ONCE, and finished outside of the top 5 only one additional time. They also consistently gave up much fewer yards than Marino's defenses, who finished in the bottom 5 in yards allowed more than they did the top 10. The Worst scoring defense Bradshaw won the Super Bowl with finished 5th, and the other 3 Rings came with the 2nd, 2nd, and 1st ranked scoring defense. All of these within a compact period of time, rather than right at the beginning of his career, and then right at the end, like these defenses came for Marino.

The BEST average finish in scoring defense for Marino's teams over a 3-year span was 6.67 (first 3 years of his career). The WORST average finish for the Steel Curtain in scoring defense was 7.67. The 2nd worst span was 4, and then 1.67 . While we're on the subject of QB Winzzz, The Steelers also had a HOF RB, 2 HOF WRs, a HOF Center, Arguably the greatest DT of all-time, One of the best ILBs of all-time, one of the best OLBs of all-time, one of the best CBs of all-time, one of the best Safeties of all-time, a HOF coach actually in his prime instead of the corpse of Don Shula, and numerous other quality starters. 

The Worst average finish in scoring defense for Marino's teams over a 3-year span was 20.67. Next worst, 19.67. Then, 17. These 3-year spans all have NO overlap with each other, so Marino was consistently ridden with poor defenses with the occasional good one splotched in. And this is only Points we're talking about, when you wanna talk about Yards, it's worse, where Marino's defense only finished inside the top 10 on 4 occasions, compared to Bradshaw's 8 (all in a row).

There are legitimate criticisms of Dan Marino, and then there's pretending that he played with numerous defenses that are not only good, but comparable to the Steel Curtain. 

[HerbertGOAT]

Here's a fun little thought exercise.
Marino's average defense finished 14.764 in Scoring, and 17.588 in Yards. for simplicity's sake, let's just call it 15th in points and 18th in yards.

Here is a list of all the teams in Marino's era (1983-1999) to win the Super Bowl with a 15th ranked (or worse) scoring defense AND 18th ranked (or worse) defense in terms of yards:

hmm... There aren't any. So on average, Marino's defense was relatively impossible to win with in his era. Crazy!

Here is a list of all the teams in Marino's era (1983-1999) to win the Super Bowl with a 15th ranked (or worse) scoring defense OR 18th ranked (or worse) defense in terms of yards:

1987 Washington (18th in yards, 6th in scoring)

hm.. so there was ONE defense that fit either of Marino's defenses tangible criteria on average. Remind me how this is his fault?

Okay, here's a list of all-time great QBs, and here's how many Super Bowls they won with a 15th or worse scoring defense AND 18th ranked or worse yardage defense:

Peyton Manning: 1

Tom Brady: 0

John Elway: 0

Terry Bradshaw: 0

Joe Montana: 0

Brett Favre: 0

Aaron Rodgers: 0

Steve Young: 0

Patrick Mahomes: 0

Troy Aikman: 0

Roger Staubach: 0

Bart Starr: 0

Kurt Warner: 0

Ben Roethlisberger: 0

Hmm... I'm seeing a pattern here. here's a list of all-time great QBs, and here's how many Super Bowls they won with a 15th or worse scoring defense OR 18th ranked or worse yardage defense:

Peyton Manning: 1 (2006 23rd in scoring 21st in points)

Tom Brady: 2 (2001 6th in scoring, 24th in Points. 2018 7th in points, 21st in yards)

John Elway: 0

Terry Bradshaw: 0

Joe Montana: 0

Brett Favre: 0

Aaron Rodgers: 0

Steve Young: 0

Patrick Mahomes: 1 (2022 16th in scoring, 11th in yards)

Troy Aikman: 0

Roger Staubach: 0

Bart Starr: 0

Kurt Warner: 0

Ben Roethlisberger: 0

 

wow, kinda d*mning huh?

 

It's almost like defense matters, and there's 53 guys on a roster for a reason. Not to mention, the guys with rings usually had long stretches of impressive defenses (Brady, Montana, Aikman, Bradshaw in particular), rather than a few spread out between a bunch of garbage like Marino had.

[biggie.]

2 minutes ago, HerbertGOAT said:

So he had the luxury of playing with the league's #1 scoring defense as a rookie, and one year before he retired? that's your "gotcha" moment? you're just gonna throw away the numerous 20-26 finishes for his actual prime?

Bradshaw's top scoring defenses came in 1976 and 1978. This was in the midst of an 8-year run where their defense finished outside of the top 10 ONCE, and finished outside of the top 5 only one additional time. They also consistently gave up much fewer yards than Marino's defenses, who finished in the bottom 5 in yards allowed more than they did the top 10. The Worst scoring defense Bradshaw won the Super Bowl with finished 5th, and the other 3 Rings came with the 2nd, 2nd, and 1st ranked scoring defense. All of these within a compact period of time, rather than right at the beginning of his career, and then right at the end, like these defenses came for Marino.

The BEST average finish in scoring defense for Marino's teams over a 3-year span was 6.67 (first 3 years of his career). The WORST average finish for the Steel Curtain in scoring defense was 7.67. The 2nd worst span was 4, and then 1.67 . While we're on the subject of QB Winzzz, The Steelers also had a HOF RB, 2 HOF WRs, a HOF Center, Arguably the greatest DT of all-time, One of the best ILBs of all-time, one of the best OLBs of all-time, one of the best CBs of all-time, one of the best Safeties of all-time, a HOF coach actually in his prime instead of the corpse of Don Shula, and numerous other quality starters. 

The Worst average finish in scoring defense for Marino's teams over a 3-year span was 20.67. Next worst, 19.67. Then, 17. These 3-year spans all have NO overlap with each other, so Marino was consistently ridden with poor defenses with the occasional good one splotched in. And this is only Points we're talking about, when you wanna talk about Yards, it's worse, where Marino's defense only finished inside the top 10 on 4 occasions, compared to Bradshaw's 8 (all in a row).

There are legitimate criticisms of Dan Marino, and then there's pretending that he played with numerous defenses that are not only good, but comparable to the Steel Curtain. 

No one is denying Marino played with poor defenses; part of the game.

However, the claim that he NEVER had a good defense is blatantly false.

[HerbertGOAT]

32 minutes ago, biggie. said:

I mean, Marino apologists love playing the "football is a team sport" but then conveniently ignore how bad Marino played in the playoffs.

The most laughable one was when he could only muster 14 points against NE in the 1986 AFC Championship. That NE team had zero business being in the Super Bowl.

1986, you mean the time when NE ran for 255 yards and had 40 minutes of TOP? Yeah, Marino's fault. And Before you bring up his 20/48, here's a little tidbit of basic football strategy. When you're down, and the other team is controlling the clock via the ground game, you throw the sh*t out of the ball to try and come back. It didn't help that Shula LOVED to try and establish the run early on in playoff games, often creating these deficits for Marino to try and come back from.

[HerbertGOAT]

2 minutes ago, biggie. said:

No one is denying Marino played with poor defenses; part of the game.

However, the claim that he NEVER had a good defense is blatantly false.

Is it fair to say out of all the all-time QBs, Marino had the worst ones on average? I think it's certainly fair. He never even had a solid stretch of even above average defenses, which all QBs have at least at some point.

[biggie.]

Just now, HerbertGOAT said:

1986, you mean the time when NE ran for 255 yards and had 40 minutes of TOP? Yeah, Marino's fault. And Before you bring up his 20/48, here's a little tidbit of basic football strategy. When you're down, and the other team is controlling the clock via the ground game, you throw the sh*t out of the ball to try and come back. It didn't help that Shula LOVED to try and establish the run early on in playoff games, often creating these deficits for Marino to try and come back from.

TOP doesn't mean ****, kid lol. Remember that Dolphins/Colts game in 2009 when the Colts only had it for like 15 minutes? Winning TOP is overrated.

All you're doing here is admitting that Marino doesn't step up when Miami needed him the most.

[Scoundrel]

[HerbertGOAT]

7 minutes ago, biggie. said:

TOP doesn't mean ****, kid lol. Remember that Dolphins/Colts game in 2009 when the Colts only had it for like 15 minutes? Winning TOP is overrated.

All you're doing here is admitting that Marino doesn't step up when Miami needed him the most.

Having the ball is better than not having the ball. The 1981 49ers turned the ball over 6 times in the NFC Championship game, do Turnovers not mean **** either?

[Nabbs4u]

All this talk of Defense and its not even the most concerning statistic when ever debating Dan Marino vs .....QB?

In an Era when Teams weren't flinging it around 40-50X a game like this Era, when teams actually had Bell Cow RB'S,  rushed more then they passed while playing great Defense. 

Dan Marino had 1 SINGULAR RB Rush for a 1,000 yds in a season his entire career. And that was at the end of his career , 1!!!!!!

 

https://fansofmediocrity.wordpress.com/2010/06/12/dolphins-rbs-dan-marino-era/

 

 

• Karim Abdul-Jabbar (1996-1999):  Ladies and Gentleman, I give you the only 1,000 yard rusher to ever team with Dan Marino.  This should tell you just how anemic the running game was during Marino’s career.  The hilariously named Abdul-Jabbar was drafted by the Dolphins in the third round out of UCLA (not be confused with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar).  He ran for 1,116 yards in his rookie season, but got those yards averaging just 3.6 a carry.  In 1997, his second season, Abdul-Jabbar led the NFL with 15 rushing touchdowns (BIG).  However, his career was over two years later.  He has had at least three different names in his lifetime, recently changing it because he was sued by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.  I’m not making that up.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Nabbs4u

[HerbertGOAT]

1 hour ago, Nabbs4u said:

All this talk of Defense and its not even the most concerning statistic when ever debating Dan Marino vs .....QB?

In an Era when Teams weren't flinging it around 40-50X a game like this Era, when teams actually had Bell Cow RB'S,  rushed more then they passed while playing great Defense. 

Dan Marino had 1 SINGULAR RB Rush for a 1,000 yds in a season his entire career. And that was at the end of his career , 1!!!!!!

 

https://fansofmediocrity.wordpress.com/2010/06/12/dolphins-rbs-dan-marino-era/

 

 

• Karim Abdul-Jabbar (1996-1999):  Ladies and Gentleman, I give you the only 1,000 yard rusher to ever team with Dan Marino.  This should tell you just how anemic the running game was during Marino’s career.  The hilariously named Abdul-Jabbar was drafted by the Dolphins in the third round out of UCLA (not be confused with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar).  He ran for 1,116 yards in his rookie season, but got those yards averaging just 3.6 a carry.  In 1997, his second season, Abdul-Jabbar led the NFL with 15 rushing touchdowns (BIG).  However, his career was over two years later.  He has had at least three different names in his lifetime, recently changing it because he was sued by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.  I’m not making that up.

This is a great point which I didn't bring up because Elway had absolute garbage running games until TD showed up, and the topic is supposed to just be Marino vs Elway.

[Nabbs4u]

21 minutes ago, HerbertGOAT said:

This is a great point which I didn't bring up because Elway had absolute garbage running games until TD showed up, and the topic is supposed to just be Marino vs Elway.

The only singular argument that can ever favor John Elway over Dan Marino are those 2 SB rings. Without Terrell Davis, John Elway goes down as one of the biggest choke artist in NFL history with 3 SB loses because Denver never wins B2B SB!

His stats in 5 SB  are atrocious!!!

50% Comp, 1,126 yds, 3 TD, 8 INT 

🖐 SB!!!

Edited February 19, 2023 by Nabbs4u