hrubes20 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 I didn't think I would ever be as happy to see another Cardinal leave Wrigley as I was every time Pujols left. Matt freaking Carpenter showed me how wrong I was. He was nothing short of a one man wrecking crew this past weekend. Unbelievable run at the plate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted July 23, 2018 Author Share Posted July 23, 2018 2 hours ago, holt_bruce81 said: Don’t think anyone was suggesting that Jose Martinez was a long term solution, but it doesn’t look like Ozuna is either. Given Jose Martinez's defensive deficiencies, I don't really have any desire to run him out in LF. If he's a bad defender at 1B, he's not going to be better in LF. If you're the Cardinals and you get a legitimate offer for Martinez and are unwilling to put up with his defensive issues at 1B, you take the best offer you can get. And it's probably coming from an AL team. I'd probably focus on the Astros and Indians. Astros' farm system is probably overall stronger, so I'd prefer that team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOSteelers56 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 SELL! SELL! SELL! also, Poncedeleon looked fantastic! SELL! SELL! SELL! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgarrett12486 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 20 hours ago, StLunatic88 said: You are delusional. And I guess the entire month of June never happened for you guys? He had a two week stretch in June where he mashed. It was far from the whole month. Since June 16th, he's complied a .213/.252/.238 slash line, which is god awful... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgarrett12486 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 20 hours ago, StLunatic88 said: Yes he has been disappointing this year, but he was also among the best hitters in baseball for a month and not a single peep from anyone about it. Now he is slumping again and we're advocating for Jose Martinez over him for the long term? Its a typical BFIB response, and its a terrible take. This team has been garbage all year and we are a faux .500 team right now. There are alot of things that should be done with this team, but picking Jose Martinez as a long term solution in the OF is not one of them. That whole sentence is completely false. As I pointed out, he had a good stretch from June 2nd-June16th. After that, he completely fell off the earth again. When he picked it up, we started commenting on how he looked to be turning the corner and how his swing had shortened. It's not like we're solely blaming the downfall of this squad on his shoulders, but he's definitely been a large part of the equation. We've criticized the countless others just as much (Fowler, Carpenter, Pham, the BP, etc.). I went back and looked that the numbers today on Ozuna. He's getting into a Brandon Moss 2016 2nd half territory. He hasn't homered in almost a month and a half and hasn't had AN EXTRA BASE HIT SINCE JULY 5th. He's on pace for 22 XBH out of the cleanup spot. He's got the worst OPS (.681) of his entire career and it's not like he was a world beater before 2016 breakout... I'm not advocating Jose Martinez is the long-term solution, but if he's gonna be on this team, his bat needs to be playing and LF is probably the best spot for him. He's arguably the 2nd best bat on this team and looking at his stats, one of the best overall hitters in the NL. He's been our best hitter w/ RISP... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgarrett12486 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 17 hours ago, CWood21 said: Given Jose Martinez's defensive deficiencies, I don't really have any desire to run him out in LF. If he's a bad defender at 1B, he's not going to be better in LF. If you're the Cardinals and you get a legitimate offer for Martinez and are unwilling to put up with his defensive issues at 1B, you take the best offer you can get. And it's probably coming from an AL team. I'd probably focus on the Astros and Indians. Astros' farm system is probably overall stronger, so I'd prefer that team. He's not going to be a great defender in LF, but he's also not going to be exposed nearly as much as he was a 1B. He's not going to be involved in anywhere close to the defensive plays he was a 1B... Like I said, if he's on this team he needs to be in the lineup. If we're moving him, it's time to do so. I don't think we're going to get anywhere near his value though, as external teams aren't going to value/view his bat the same as we've seen... At this junction of the season, this squad is a lost cause. Guys like Tyler O'Neill, Jose Martinez, Yairo Munoz and Harrison Bader should be seeing consistent playing time to gauge what they are heading into 2019... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgarrett12486 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 Daniel Poncedeleon's debut last night was historical. He's only the 2nd player in 118 years to throw at least 7 no-hit innings in his MLB debut. Absolutely incredible performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 6 minutes ago, kgarrett12486 said: I'm not advocating Jose Martinez is the long-term solution, but if he's gonna be on this team, his bat needs to be playing and LF is probably the best spot for him. He's arguably the 2nd best bat on this team and looking at his stats, one of the best overall hitters in the NL. He's been our best hitter w/ RISP... Sorry, his bat is not as good as you are trying to present it to be. You're looking at breaking things down, Check out Martinez Post June, he is almost Slugging exactly what his Average is. Since June 13th he has 3 HRs, but only 2 other extra base hits. And his defense isnt just bad, its absolutely Putrid, and he would be a liability in LF, unlike Ozuna (yes, he is a damn good Fielder, ill take Jim Edmonds opinion on that over anything you try to throw out there) Yes Ozuna is in a massive slump, something is clearly wrong and needs to be fixed, but I will always take my chances on him, seeing what he normally is, with the potential he showed last year (and in a few different streaks this year) over the new J-Rod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holt_bruce81 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 18 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: Sorry, his bat is not as good as you are trying to present it to be. You're looking at breaking things down, Check out Martinez Post June, he is almost Slugging exactly what his Average is. Since June 13th he has 3 HRs, but only 2 other extra base hits. And his defense isnt just bad, its absolutely Putrid, and he would be a liability in LF, unlike Ozuna (yes, he is a damn good Fielder, ill take Jim Edmonds opinion on that over anything you try to throw out there) Yes Ozuna is in a massive slump, something is clearly wrong and needs to be fixed, but I will always take my chances on him, seeing what he normally is,with the potential he showed last year (and in a few different streaks this year) over the new J-Rod. What’s he normally? And a “damn good fielder” might be pushing it, he’s about average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgarrett12486 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, StLunatic88 said: Sorry, his bat is not as good as you are trying to present it to be. You're looking at breaking things down, Check out Martinez Post June, he is almost Slugging exactly what his Average is. Since June 13th he has 3 HRs, but only 2 other extra base hits. And his defense isnt just bad, its absolutely Putrid, and he would be a liability in LF, unlike Ozuna (yes, he is a damn good Fielder, ill take Jim Edmonds opinion on that over anything you try to throw out there) Yes Ozuna is in a massive slump, something is clearly wrong and needs to be fixed, but I will always take my chances on him, seeing what he normally is, with the potential he showed last year (and in a few different streaks this year) over the new J-Rod. 1] In the 34 games since June 13th, Martinez had 4 games in which he didn't take an AB and 7 games in which he took 1 AB as a PH. He's essentially been relegated to 23 full games over this 'slump' stretch. His playing time has been dramatically reduced (something that tends to hurt players numbers, especially power wise), yet he's still been able to average an .855 OPS during that stretch. Hell, even him slugging .273 since the All-Star break is still nearly 100 pts. higher than Ozuna's slug. % during the same stretch. Even when we see a drop off in extra base hits, Martinez still gets on base and takes productive AB's. He's a very good bat. His defense is putrid there is no way around that, but in LF he's serviceable and as I pointed out earlier, he's not exposed in near the degree he is at 1B. 2] You're overrating Ozuna's defense. He's not a bad defender by any means, but let's not act like he's otherworldly here. He's an average to slightly above average in Left field. A spot 99.9% of major league teams hide there worst OF defender... 3] For the record, I like Marcell Ozuna. I was stoked about the move at the time and was a believer that his 2017 wasn't just an outlier. He's done everything to make me 2nd guess that though. He's had 1 month in which he posted an OPS over .700 this season. That's about as bad as it gets from a guy who's been hitting in your clean up spot basically all year. Now, do I think he's as bad as his numbers have shown this year? Absolutely not. Looking at his career, I think he's likely closer to his 2016 numbers kind of player (.266/.321/.452 with a .773 OPS and 20-25 HRS). That's not a bad player, but it's closer to a league average player than a star. I don't think he's the type of bat we expected on his own. He's not a guy who is going to carry a team. He needs to be surrounded by a star(s) to take the focus off him. I think if we had another star bat in front of him, his numbers could get close to that 2017 level again, but not w/out one... Edited July 24, 2018 by kgarrett12486 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 1 hour ago, kgarrett12486 said: He's not a guy who is going to carry a team. He needs to be surrounded by a star(s) to take the focus off him. I think if we had another star bat in front of him, his numbers could get close to that 2017 level again, but not w/out one... After ALL of that, how are you then still on the side of giving at bats to Martinez over Ozuna? Because regardless of their performance so far this year, Ozuna is still a part of this teams future until otherwise stated. And giving the Career year 4A bat with no defensive ability playing time over him while we are clearly playing for next year already is that wrong way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holt_bruce81 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 (edited) Edited July 25, 2018 by holt_bruce81 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holt_bruce81 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Tyler O’Neil with 2 more bombs tonight. Gives him 25 in 57 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted July 25, 2018 Author Share Posted July 25, 2018 On 7/23/2018 at 9:24 PM, MOSteelers56 said: SELL! SELL! SELL! also, Poncedeleon looked fantastic! SELL! SELL! SELL! In my dreams...the Cardinals won't sell. They'll sit in this holding pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted July 25, 2018 Author Share Posted July 25, 2018 16 hours ago, kgarrett12486 said: He's not going to be a great defender in LF, but he's also not going to be exposed nearly as much as he was a 1B. He's not going to be involved in anywhere close to the defensive plays he was a 1B... Like I said, if he's on this team he needs to be in the lineup. If we're moving him, it's time to do so. I don't think we're going to get anywhere near his value though, as external teams aren't going to value/view his bat the same as we've seen... At this junction of the season, this squad is a lost cause. Guys like Tyler O'Neill, Jose Martinez, Yairo Munoz and Harrison Bader should be seeing consistent playing time to gauge what they are heading into 2019... I'll be honest, I view LF as a "harder" defensive position than 1B despite what Albert Pujols said. You don't need a GG-caliber defender at first, you need someone who can make the consistent play there. Over a large sample size, Jose Martinez has graded out better defensively at 1B both in terms of DRS and UZR/150. He's not going to win a GG at 1B by any means. But at a certain point, you have to make a decision. Are you willing to give up something defensively to play the bat or not? At this point, I'm not totally sure what the Cardinals want to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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