Raiders sign QB Jimmy Garoppolo (3 years, $67.5M, $34M gtd)

[BackinBlack]

35 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

You're exactly right about JM in that he has proven only to be a loser as a HC.  Here are some facts.

-His career record as a HC is 17 and 28.  

-He has never proven he can win outside of the protection of BB and Brady.

 

My man, would you agree that Carr is proven to only been a loser QB ?
Career record 63-79 
never won a playoff game. 
throws the ball away on 4th down

-

I know you wouldnt . . because, as youve argued, this team is a shell of a D, and brutal depth. 

Why does Carr get a pass but not JMD?
 

Edited April 22, 2023 by BackinBlack

[BackinBlack]

13 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Microstatistical improvements vs total on-field product are two different animals though. 

If a QB starts every game and carefully completes 3/3 passes per game for 1 TD and no INTs, the ratios, QBR, etc would go through the roof. The term garbage time comes to mind. 

That's an extreme example. I'll cede that. 

A more pertinent example is our run game, and something I'm on record as crediting him as being very good at, and why I prefer to let Jacobs walk or be traded as opposed to tying ourselves to a bloated RB contract. Our run game, on a statistical level, improved. But how often did it actually make a positive difference from the year prior? The Seattle game was a treat to watch, in a vacuum, but it also served as one game that caused a not-insignificant spike in our overall rushing statistics. 

Much like the fantasy football argument, it's possible to have a good statistical season and it still be an overall turd. We had a few nice and shiny statistical games that buoyed overall numbers as "improved", but again, the overall on-field product start to finish....eh not so much. Jacobs, for example, had a career year. Shame a disproportionate amount of his stats came in 5 games. That's relevant because statistical outliers like that are almost never indicative of sustainable success or improvement. It would be like calling a RB a franchise bellcow RB because they reach 1000 yards....despite the reality being they had a pair of 250 yard outings in weeks 1 and 2. 

Basically, I'm hesitant to put too much stock into the near equivalent of Combine workouts for draft picks. A guy at 6'6 280 can run a 4.29, jump 12 feet in the air, hot a 19 foot broad jump, hit a 1.5 3 cone shuttle, throw up 55 reps on the bench, and chuck a football 85 yards from a seated position. Those micros are nifty as all heck. They signify what some might call a "generational" prospect. But can they even actually play football?

Conversely, a team can do everything right based on a season's worth of stats. Score the most points, have the least amount of turnovers, a solid point differential.  I'm talking 28.11 pts per game to  22.58 allowed. But then you realize they won their first game 158-0 and proceeded to lose every other game 20-24. Is that a good team, or a team with a great game? See the imbalance? Would someone be overly optimistic about that team moving forward? 

With the 2022 Raiders, what I saw was a team with a couple of great games and a LOT of fluff that looks pretty on a spreadsheet, but not on the TV screen (and definitely not in person, as I was unfortunately subjected to lol). 

this i do agree with, and tried to quickly sum up  as being streaky. But yes I agree. 
0 consistency last year on O. and if you cannot move the ball effectively all game it becomes irrelevent what you do the other half of game. Chargers, Ari, Tenn, we all saw 1 great half 1 bad half. Then KC it looked like things may have finally clicked but no it continued all year of inconsistent O. 

I agree last year wasnt pretty, I also unfortuntately was at a lot of games. . and very POd driving home/ to hotels. A Lot of blame on JMD. a lot of blame on players. 
week 1 - carr doesnt throw 3 picks, we could win. Waller down the middle end of half couldve been a td if better throw. 
week 2 - waller drops in hands TD, and we kick 3. 
week 3 - Waller drops TD, and drops another that turns into pick. 
KC game - wouldve been incredible sideline catch, but a catch weve all seen DA make. 

These are all plays weve seen our guys make, but, football is an insane momentum sport, and you could see things spiralled early.

100% JMD is at fault too, but, I think season goes a little different if a couple of our Star players made big time plays early on in the season. 

[big_palooka]

12 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

You almost gotta respect JMD’s salesmanship because he’s got sooo many layers Of dirt on him but he’s been able to manipulate, spin, and sell himself to 2 team AFTER The Denver disaster.  
he really is the ultimate snake oil salesman.  

You put entirely to much emphasis on what happened in Denver over a decade ago with a much younger inexperienced coach. 

Bill Belichick went 36-44 his first sting in Cleveland. He lost 9 of the teams last 13 games his first year to finish 6-10. Year 2, started 5-4, finished 7-9. Year 3, he cut QB Bernie Kosar midseason because of a philosophical difference on how the offense should be run. He used to blast Kosar on the sideline for changing plays. He pissed the team and entire city off cutting the starting QB midseason after 9 years. 

Point is, putting all your eggs in the "what happened in Denver" basket is just an easy way to hate on him. Nevermind the fact he was right...  Jay Cutler was a bum. Kyle Orton ended up having his highest rated season with McDaniels. And we'll never know what might have happened if he'd landed Matt Cassel. 

[Frankie2Gunz]

26 minutes ago, BackinBlack said:

My man, would you agree that Carr is proven to only been a loser QB ?
Career record 63-79 
never won a playoff game. 
throws the ball away on 4th down

-

I know you wouldnt . . because, as youve argued, this team is a shell of a D, and brutal depth. 

Why does Carr get a pass but not JMD?
 

Football is a team sport and W/L is not a stat that can be solely attributed to a QB.  

Does Carr have a career losing record yes he does.   Has Carr ever had consistency with his coaches, quality overall talent on either side of the ball but most importantly a D that wasn't amongst the worst in the NFL... No he has not.  

This upcoming season will be quite telling and I am fascinated to see how it all plays out.  Carr is now in a situation where he has quality surrounding talent on both sides of the ball but most importantly a D that isn't amongst the worst in the NFL.  JM now has his boy in Jimmy G and is building the roster his way.  There are no more excuses on either side.  

Let's say that JM wins 4ish games this year like I expect him to do and Carr has a good season in NO and leads them to the playoffs.  Heck let's even speculate that Carr has a good season, leads them to the playoffs and wins a playoff game.  Will your stance on JM and this team change? 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Frankie2Gunz

[BackinBlack]

3 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

Football is a team sport and W/L is not a stat that can be solely attributed to a QB.  

Does Carr have a career losing record yes he does.   Has Carr ever had consistency with his coaches, quality overall talent on either side of the ball but most importantly a D that wasn't amongst the worst in the NFL... No he has not.  

This upcoming season will be quite telling and I am fascinated to see how it all plays out.  Carr is now in a situation where he has quality surrounding talent on both sides of the ball but most importantly a D that isn't amongst the worst in the NFL.  JM now has his boy in Jimmy G and is building the roster his way.  There are no more excuses on either side.  

Let's say that JM wins 4ish games this year like I expect him to do and Carr has a good season in NO and leads them to the playoffs.  Heck let's even speculate that Carr has a good season, leads them to the playoffs and wins a playoff game.  Will your stance on JM and this team change? 

I agree with your first point. And would say it also cannot be solely attributed to a HC. 
So discussing JMD W/L record and saying therefore he is a proven loser, is the same as doing that with Carr. 

Den was not some powerhouse team when JMD was there, and neither were we last season. JMD had a terrible D to work with last season too, as did Carr. He also had players learning his system, brutal depth and no set oline till like week 8.

I agree, I am very excited for this season, I think Carr has his best team around him since 2016 but an overall better D, Mack was just a monster. It will be interesting to see what Carr can do, I think he put himself in a very good spot. 
Agreed with JMD too, he got his boy, and I actually expect our O to regress this year in some aspects unfortunately. 
I believe we should be a more consistent team on both O and D, which should make us better overall. 

Carr having a good or bad season wont change my stance on the raiders. I have nothing against NO, so am glad Carr went somewhere were I dont have to hate him. NE, Rams, jets Id prob be praying for Carr to do bad. In NO, ill wish him the best unless we meet them in the SB one day. 

Us winning 4 games would suck, and is a real possibility. but will depend on so many things. If jimmy stays healthy and we win 4 yeah 100% thats a bad look on JMD. If our D still is bottom 7 yeah tough look. IF players come out and start demanding trades yup brutal look.

But what if Jimmy comes in and manages games, keeps our O on the field and our D off, scores in the redzones and just gels better with JMD? Carr can do well in NO, and JG can do well here. They both can have success, and ultimately I think both moves ended up working well for all parties. JMD and Carr werent going to work, unfortunate, but true. 
 

[SilverNBlackFan]

4 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

You're exactly right about JM in that he has proven only to be a loser as a HC.  Here are some facts.

-His career record as a HC is 17 and 28.  

-He has never proven he can win outside of the protection of BB and Brady.

-He inherited a team that was a play away form advancing to the second round of the playoffs that had one of the most tumultuous seasons of any team in recent memory who lost their HC and #1 early in the year.  JM/DZ had one full offseason to "improve" the roster, made "splash moves" by signing Jones and trading for Adams and the team regressed in multiple areas.  W/L the D.  That is all on JM and DZ.

Its hillarious how optimistic and happy you were when we initially hired JMD mostly because he extended your boy. 

Now that Carr crapped the bed for the last time and JMD benched his ***, its funny watching you switch up and project all your anger on the guys you were praising all last offseason.

i have no clue whether JMD/Ziegler will work out. In fact i have my doubts. But we have to give it 3 years minimum to see how it plays out. 

 

 

[raidr4life]

38 minutes ago, SilverNBlackFan said:

Its hillarious how optimistic and happy you were when we initially hired JMD mostly because he extended your boy. 

Now that Carr crapped the bed for the last time and JMD benched his ***, its funny watching you switch up and project all your anger on the guys you were praising all last offseason.

i have no clue whether JMD/Ziegler will work out. In fact i have my doubts. But we have to give it 3 years minimum to see how it plays out. 

 

 

I was going to post this too, but decided not too, but yeah we were all fools for thinking the new regime was getting rid of Carr and the extention proved we don't know nothing about football like he told us, blah blah blah. 

[Frankie2Gunz]

10 hours ago, SilverNBlackFan said:

Its hillarious how optimistic and happy you were when we initially hired JMD mostly because he extended your boy. 

Now that Carr crapped the bed for the last time and JMD benched his ***, its funny watching you switch up and project all your anger on the guys you were praising all last offseason.

i have no clue whether JMD/Ziegler will work out. In fact i have my doubts. But we have to give it 3 years minimum to see how it plays out. 

 

 

Early on in the process I was optimistic about the JM/DZ combo, well before Carr was extended.  I also stated the things I felt they should do to improve the team in which they have not done after two full FA periods.  I also stated that the team was no where near contention and that not building for the future was the incorrect move particularly if they completely neglected key positions during the FA period.  They went out and signed a washed up Jones and did nothing to address the glaring holes on the Oline or D which I could not have fathomed that any new incoming HC/GM would neglect but they sure did.  After the 1st FA period ended I was questioning the plan and saw a team with massive holes that I was assuming would have been filled.  They were not and that was a major red flag!

I was also optimistic that JM had learned form his previous failures and had grown as a HC.  Shortly after the season started I could see that he was no where near the "great football" mind that we were lead to believe outside of the umbrella of BB and Brady.  His lack of ability to call games for a full 60 min was apparent very early in the year and it as quite obvious to anyone who watched that the team was not playing with a fraction of the passion they had played with the year before under RB.  The D had clearly taken a major step backwards and that was with allegedly "more talent".  All of this is on JM.

My stance in regards to JM changed early in the season as I could see there were major issues with the D, the play calling was well below average, he never made the proper adjustment and players lacked the motivation and fire we saw at the end of 2021 with RB as the HC.  

I also have stated many times over the years that I would have no problem moving on fro Carr if the team found a legit younger upgrade but moving on from Carr with no plan in place was foolish and are now stuck with a clearly inferior QB who is injury prone.  I have advocated for taking a shot on a QB in the 3rd and beyond then develop that player and move on from Carr when we have a unquestionable upgrade in place.  If we had a chance to draft an elite stud prospect like Manning, Luck, Lawerence early in a draft I would have been all for taking them but we never had the chance. 

It is undeniable that the Carr situation was a complete embarrassment to the franchise and makes JM/DZ look like incompetent fools.  Regardless of what some idiots think Carr is an asset and for him to be cut with noting in compensation all while incurring a 6M cap hit for the upcoming season is flat out incompetence and I have yet to hear anything contradictory to that.  That is 100 percent on JM and DZ and is completely unacceptable.  Anyone who advocates how this was handled is a complete shill and knows nothing about business or football. 

They now have their boy in Jimmy G and will have two full off seasons under their belts they will have no more excuses.  They are building the team their way and will now have two full years with their players, running their scheme.  A 4ish win season at this point is unacceptable and unless they luck themself into multiple stud starters via the draft they are looking at a ugly upcoming season...

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Frankie2Gunz

[ronjon1990]

14 hours ago, BackinBlack said:

I agree, I am very excited for this season, I think Carr has his best team around him since 2016 but an overall better D, Mack was just a monster. It will be interesting to see what Carr can do, I think he put himself in a very good spot. 
Agreed with JMD too, he got his boy, and I actually expect our O to regress this year in some aspects unfortunately. 
I believe we should be a more consistent team on both O and D, which should make us better overall. 
 

Of course it depends on whether they has any actual interest or not, but am I alone in thinking he would've been in a better situation with Carolina?

Aside from Dennis Allen, who is a lame duck and marginal head coach he had all of a single season alongside, I really don't see what the draw to New Orleans was. The D is meh, Michael Thomas is about as reliable as Sam Bradford's ACL's amd Kamara may be facing some time behind bars. 

[raidr4life]

44 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Of course it depends on whether they has any actual interest or not, but am I alone in thinking he would've been in a better situation with Carolina?

Aside from Dennis Allen, who is a lame duck and marginal head coach he had all of a single season alongside, I really don't see what the draw to New Orleans was. The D is meh, Michael Thomas is about as reliable as Sam Bradford's ACL's amd Kamara may be facing some time behind bars. 

No no please don't, New Orleans is head and shoulders above the Raiders and Carr is going to ball out.

[Frankie2Gunz]

8 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Of course it depends on whether they has any actual interest or not, but am I alone in thinking he would've been in a better situation with Carolina?

Aside from Dennis Allen, who is a lame duck and marginal head coach he had all of a single season alongside, I really don't see what the draw to New Orleans was. The D is meh, Michael Thomas is about as reliable as Sam Bradford's ACL's amd Kamara may be facing some time behind bars. 

I also didn't think NO was the ideal landing spot for Carr, I always thought the Jets would have been the ideal spot.  

Allen is a meh HC as you point out but the Saints are in a much better situation than we are.  They have a superior Oline, Thomas can still ball if he can stay healthy, Olave showed promise as a rookie, Kamra and Williams will be a nice 1/2 punch if Kamrua plays but they obviously have some questions on that side of the ball with Thomas and Kamura.  

The D has always been good and though they are old they still should be above average next year.  Jordan, Honey Badger, Warner, Davis, Lattimore are still good layers.  

They play in a dome and Carr will once again have autonomy at the LOS.  It will be fascinating to see how all of this plays out.  I wonder what the narrative will be if we win 4ish games while Carr plays well and leads NO to the playoffs?

Edited April 23, 2023 by Frankie2Gunz

[ronjon1990]

10 hours ago, raidr4life said:

No no please don't, New Orleans is head and shoulders above the Raiders and Carr is going to ball out.

How is that at all relevant to what I said? 

He may indeed experience a resurgence in New Orleans. He may flop. My opinion of the Saints is still low and has been for a very long time. 

I think he would have been better served plying his hand in Carolina. 

 

[ronjon1990]

3 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I also didn't think NO was the ideal landing spot for Carr, I always thought the Jets would have been the ideal spot.  

Allen is a meh HC as you point out but the Saints are in a much better situation than we are.  They have a superior Oline, Thomas can still ball if he can stay healthy, Olave showed promise as a rookie, Kamra and Williams will be a nice 1/2 punch if Kamrua plays but they obviously have some questions on that side of the ball with Thomas and Kamura.  

The D has always been good and though they are old they still should be above average next year.  Jordan, Honey Badger, Warner, Davis, Lattimore are still good layers.  

They play in a dome and Carr will once again have autonomy at the LOS.  It will be fascinating to see how all of this plays out.  I wonder what the narrative will be if we win 4ish games while Carr plays well and leads NO to the playoffs?

1. Never understood the Jets idea myself. He's not a NYC guy. I don't think he's a bad talker in interviews, but NY is a whole different level and regardless of my opinion of Saleh, I don't think stability and the Jets belong in the same conversation. They've had ups and downs over my lifetime, but are almost always on the precipice of dysfunction. 

2. Depends on how serious of a narrative someone wants to have. For me, it would be that Josh McDaniels indeed sucks, no room for further debate. Like you said, New Orleans is in a better overall situation. That, I agree with on relative terms. But, they do play in an easier division. Maybe Carr gets the Raiders to 6 or even 7 wins, but we'd still be sitting home at the end of the regular season without a shot at the playoffs. Now, of Carr has some MVP-ish caliber season, I think it would say A LOT about our overall talent and coaching that would warrant plenty of reflection. If Carr has a relatively typical 25/10 4k type season and the Saints make the playoffs, I don't think we learn much either way other than better overall teams have a better chance at making the playoffs- and in our case, that's already known as the Chiefs and Chargers have better overall rosters and coaching from top to bottom even if Mahomes and Herbert are eliminated from the equation. 

In my opinion, there's 4 possible outcomes regarding Carr:

Carr has an MVP-ish season and our entire franchise looks mismanaged. 

Carr has a typical season, the Saints make the playoffs, and it's obvious that better overall teams/situations have better odds at doing so. 

Carr has a typical season, the Saints miss the playoffs, and there's really nothing to learn other than he's an average QB on an average team.

Carr has a dreadful season and we made a good decision to cut bait as he was clearly the one being pulled along by our entire roster, unimaginable as that may seem. 

 

[G]

On 4/21/2023 at 6:56 AM, BackinBlack said:

I mean we all know this team isnt built right now for instant success right? 
our D blows, our O has little depth. 
Jimmy is an injury waiting to happen . . . 

-
Trust me, I want to win badly, but just like I didnt put all the blame on Carr for loses when we have a poorly built team ..
its also unfair to put all the blame on JMD right now . . .

 

I blame Mark Davis...He hired the people who made this mess. 

 

On 4/21/2023 at 7:13 AM, big_palooka said:

Exactly. Post Al Davis, we all anticipated things to improve. Thus far, it's been a revolving door of coaches, GMs, philosophies, and players. When Gruden was hired for 10 years, you felt like at least there would be some resemblance of consistency. 

The overarching factor in all of that is poor draft picks and poor roster construction which has lead to a dearth of homegrown talent. 

Until this team can adequately draft and develop talent, they will continue to struggle. The one off playoff appearances are meaningless. 50% of the teams don't make it the next year. It's about building a consistent philosophy and hitting on the right players for it. 

 

 

BP you and I both believe in consistency and establishing something long term. With investing I'm willing to 'catch a falling knife' (invest good money after it goes bad) and I'm also able to cut my losses and move on quickly if I feel something is 'off.' Something seems 'off' about McDaniels. I'm judging (I define judgement as expectation not in present time) McDaniels off of his overall history and the conditions/environment of when he had SUCCESS. The person's CHARACTER or MY 'perception' of that person's character. Character is WHY I gave Carr more leeway than I'm WILLING to give McDaniels.  McDaniels success was under Bill with Brady at QB. We saw Brady can win without Bill and Bill will get his chance to win without Brady. McDaniels FAILED in a most EPIC and fan base despised fashion. Like one of the most hated coaches by a fanbase  except BOB of Texans lore who failed because THEY DIDN'T CUT and kept investing good money as it went bad. 

Then McDaniels has success with Bill and Brady again then takes the Indy job but bails in a not good way which Bill did to the Jets so he learned from his boss a few things EXCEPT how to win and lead men into battle where they are willing to sacrifice for you. If were at war and in a fox hole together I've already taken McDaniels OUT myself. I've always been able to 'follow' but not long if the leaders act like they shouldn't be followed. I think the past 3 years has strengthened my resolve in this matter as I see a lack of leadership and taking responsibility in our so called 'leaders' and I don't mean just political but CEO's etc. I've called mine out several times (don't know why I wasn't fired) and I keep getting raises to keep me as I'm always 'one foot out the door.' Maybe it's because OTHERS see the same lack of leadership and don't want to lose those who are willing to speak up so they defend US behind closed doors. I don't know and it doesn't matter as we'll all pass/move on at some point. As a Raider fan already one foot out the door I hope the team has success this season or moves on from McDaniels. 'Z' can be allowed to look for the next HC but final approval should be Mark's and if it's following the 'Patriot Way' and not Bill himself then I say 'NO' and fire 'Z' on the spot and hire a new GM and let them do their job. The GM shouldn't be Pats Way' nor from the Super Bowl teams. 

You are right that we need to have patience... Build a good culture and have some consistent programs set in place for the future. I wasn't a fan of the hire but I was willing to give him a chance and the results I've seen combined with his history is why I'm not willing to accept him. HE CAN EARN all of that back (I'm happy to eat crow) by PROVING his way works but he gets to do that with a chunk of the fans wanting nim gone already. HE did EARN that. So is he a fighter or...

[raidr4life]

4 hours ago, G said:

I blame Mark Davis...He hired the people who made this mess. 

 

BP you and I both believe in consistency and establishing something long term. With investing I'm willing to 'catch a falling knife' (invest good money after it goes bad) and I'm also able to cut my losses and move on quickly if I feel something is 'off.' Something seems 'off' about McDaniels. I'm judging (I define judgement as expectation not in present time) McDaniels off of his overall history and the conditions/environment of when he had SUCCESS. The person's CHARACTER or MY 'perception' of that person's character. Character is WHY I gave Carr more leeway than I'm WILLING to give McDaniels.  McDaniels success was under Bill with Brady at QB. We saw Brady can win without Bill and Bill will get his chance to win without Brady. McDaniels FAILED in a most EPIC and fan base despised fashion. Like one of the most hated coaches by a fanbase  except BOB of Texans lore who failed because THEY DIDN'T CUT and kept investing good money as it went bad. 

Then McDaniels has success with Bill and Brady again then takes the Indy job but bails in a not good way which Bill did to the Jets so he learned from his boss a few things EXCEPT how to win and lead men into battle where they are willing to sacrifice for you. If were at war and in a fox hole together I've already taken McDaniels OUT myself. I've always been able to 'follow' but not long if the leaders act like they shouldn't be followed. I think the past 3 years has strengthened my resolve in this matter as I see a lack of leadership and taking responsibility in our so called 'leaders' and I don't mean just political but CEO's etc. I've called mine out several times (don't know why I wasn't fired) and I keep getting raises to keep me as I'm always 'one foot out the door.' Maybe it's because OTHERS see the same lack of leadership and don't want to lose those who are willing to speak up so they defend US behind closed doors. I don't know and it doesn't matter as we'll all pass/move on at some point. As a Raider fan already one foot out the door I hope the team has success this season or moves on from McDaniels. 'Z' can be allowed to look for the next HC but final approval should be Mark's and if it's following the 'Patriot Way' and not Bill himself then I say 'NO' and fire 'Z' on the spot and hire a new GM and let them do their job. The GM shouldn't be Pats Way' nor from the Super Bowl teams. 

You are right that we need to have patience... Build a good culture and have some consistent programs set in place for the future. I wasn't a fan of the hire but I was willing to give him a chance and the results I've seen combined with his history is why I'm not willing to accept him. HE CAN EARN all of that back (I'm happy to eat crow) by PROVING his way works but he gets to do that with a chunk of the fans wanting nim gone already. HE did EARN that. So is he a fighter or...

I'm just want to say the 2nd off season ain't even finished yet  when yall claim they had 2 off seasons draft hasn't happened yet and Free agency after cuts hasn't happened yet.