mikebpackfan Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 So, opinion NOT noted. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 19 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: And the smart people here say, I haven't seen enough that I'm sitting cozy at home knowing the next franchise QB is in GB for a decade, nor have I seen enough to tell me that I should be studying tape on this QB class. Right now Jordan has had ups and downs, but his supporting cast at WR/OL/TE/RB has been a majority down. Until that changes, you cannot evaluate any QB, from Mahomes to Peterman properly. He's shown enough to me to say he's earned this year and next. If he'd sign a 4/120 type extension, I think I'd do it as 30m per gives us a lot of room to build a team around him. Anything more and I'm waiting until next year. What you continue to neglect is the poor state of every roster who gets their franchise QB. Teams get franchise quarterbacks because their teams suck the year before. Allen had nobody at WR when he came in. Lawrence still has nobody. Daniel Jones never - EVER - had an elite or even GOOD #1 receiver. Lawrence had perhaps the worst NFL head coach for a rookie QB in a decade. Goff had a terrible coach and no receivers. None of these quarterbacks are coming in in their FIRST YEAR (not fourth like Love), and they still looked significantly more promising. I can acknowledge that things might change for Love. What NOBODY here acknowledges is that these issues Love is facing have not been limited to him. He is in a perfectly ordinary team for a first year starting QB. He has the benefit of having an offensive minded head coach plus four full training camps to sit and learn from a Hall of Fame quarterback who was VERY good to him. These are all luxuries others did NOT have, and Still Love is performing worse than them You and @incognito_man can huff and puff at my black and white conclusions on Love, and that’s fair. I have written him off too early. What’s not fair is that neither of you can acknowledge that these roster shortcomings are typical, not extraordinary. Further, Love’s offensive head coach is a luxury. Finally, four full training camps is a luxury not afforded to potential franchise quarterbacks who start immediately. Stop citing the supporting cast. His supporting cast is typical. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Buffalo_Bills_season https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Jacksonville_Jaguars_season To neglect four entire training camps of being prepared is irrational. To neglect a good coaching staff (as far as offense, I will grant I have plenty of issues with LaFleur overall), and the paltry state of all first year starting quarterbacks is just as unfair and irrational as me writing him off after one year. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 All we can do is compare his situation to others who have succeeded and failed. We’ve played the bad teams on our schedule so far. With one or two good. Compared to his peers, their situations, rosters, coaches… Love is performing poorly. So far, every indication of his output to a career trajectory suggests he is not the future. OF COURSE that could prove incorrect. But to sit there and act like what Love has shown with everything he has going for him is the more faulty conclusion. Neglecting four full training camps and preseasons as anything short of a tremendous luxury he has over other franchise potential quarterbacks is shameful. Neglecting the fact 90% of franchise quarterbacks enter a team because the team has sucked long enough to be in a position to acquire one is also shameful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 And your only discourse in defending Love is to point to the things that are standard. Not abnormal, but standard. While simultaneously ignoring and tossing aside the benefits Love does have going for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 9 minutes ago, MacReady said: What you continue to neglect is the poor state of every roster who gets their franchise QB. Teams get franchise quarterbacks because their teams suck the year before. Allen had nobody at WR when he came in. Lawrence still has nobody. Daniel Jones never - EVER - had an elite or even GOOD #1 receiver. Lawrence had perhaps the worst NFL head coach for a rookie QB in a decade. Goff had a terrible coach and no receivers. None of these quarterbacks are coming in in their FIRST YEAR (not fourth like Love), and they still looked significantly more promising. I can acknowledge that things might change for Love. What NOBODY here acknowledges is that these issues Love is facing have not been limited to him. He is in a perfectly ordinary team for a first year starting QB. He has the benefit of having an offensive minded head coach plus four full training camps to sit and learn from a Hall of Fame quarterback who was VERY good to him. These are all luxuries others did NOT have, and Still Love is performing worse than them You and @incognito_man can huff and puff at my black and white conclusions on Love, and that’s fair. I have written him off too early. What’s not fair is that neither of you can acknowledge that these roster shortcomings are typical, not extraordinary. Further, Love’s offensive head coach is a luxury. Finally, four full training camps is a luxury not afforded to potential franchise quarterbacks who start immediately. Stop citing the supporting cast. His supporting cast is typical. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Buffalo_Bills_season https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Jacksonville_Jaguars_season To neglect four entire training camps of being prepared is irrational. To neglect a good coaching staff (as far as offense, I will grant I have plenty of issues with LaFleur overall), and the paltry state of all first year starting quarterbacks is just as unfair and irrational as me writing him off after one year. Your case against Love is Trevor Lawrence and Josh Allen? Lol. Seems like more of a reason to give your QB time. And don't reference bench sitting years to me, I don't give a ****. Give me start totals. Practices? We talking about practice!? Starts, that's all that matters, Love is a year 1 starter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 11 minutes ago, MacReady said: Stop citing the supporting cast. His supporting cast is typical. Guess what else is typical... (hint, it's Jordan Love's performance compared to other QBs in similar situations) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packfanfb Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 47 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: Right now Jordan has had ups and downs, but his supporting cast at WR/OL/TE/RB has been a majority down. Until that changes, you cannot evaluate any QB, from Mahomes to Peterman properly. Honest question. Do you expect these areas to get better simply by the passage of time? Meaning are you fine with going into 2024 with this same WR/TE group, and if so, would you then judge Love's play differently or otherwise hold him to a higher standard for his play? I'll answer first. I'm not expecting any material difference in the offense's play in 2024 if they keep everyone around meaning LaFleur, Love, same WRs, same TEs, basically same OL but for maybe a rookie added to the group. While I don't think they'll be as God awful in first halfs as they've been, overall they'll still be a bottom 10-15 unit. I think this offense has a major talent problem and that it's not about "letting them have time" and a light switch goes off. I think Love is doomed under the present circumstances he's in. He may be doomed anyways because he might not be a good QB, but he would at least have a fighting chance with a better cast around him. Now, your turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 1 minute ago, packfanfb said: Honest question. Do you expect these areas to get better simply by the passage of time? Meaning are you fine with going into 2024 with this same WR/TE group, and if so, would you then judge Love's play differently or otherwise hold him to a higher standard for his play? I'll answer first. I'm not expecting any material difference in the offense's play in 2024 if they keep everyone around meaning LaFleur, Love, same WRs, same TEs, basically same OL but for maybe a rookie added to the group. While I don't think they'll be as God awful in first halfs as they've been, overall they'll still be a bottom 10-15 unit. I think this offense has a major talent problem and that it's not about "letting them have time" and a light switch goes off. I think Love is doomed under the present circumstances he's in. He may be doomed anyways because he might not be a good QB, but he would at least have a fighting chance with a better cast around him. Now, your turn. I would run it back, I like every single individual we have there. I do not like the sum of the parts at the moment. If it doesn't get better in 20 games, it might be time to start from scratch all the way to the top with new prez, GM, HC, QB etc... EDIT, this means GM/HC/QB/skills I think the RB room will be rebuilt much like WR/TE room were the last two years, and OL room will have 2 new starters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 11 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: Your case against Love is Trevor Lawrence and Josh Allen? Lol. Seems like more of a reason to give your QB time. And don't reference bench sitting years to me, I don't give a ****. Give me start totals. Practices? We talking about practice!? Starts, that's all that matters, Love is a year 1 starter. You’ve used Aaron Rodgers sitting for four years for the past four years as evidence why Love should have been picked and sat for four years and now it’s not convenient for your argument you s at it’s worthless. It’s not worthless, and you know it. You’re better than this. It’s extremely valuable while also neglecting that Love did have actual starts leading up to this year. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, incognito_man said: Guess what else is typical... (hint, it's Jordan Love's performance compared to other QBs in similar situations) No it’s really not. Lawrence had Urban Meyer and nothing at WR. Love has a good, established offensive minded head coach with NFL experience and plenty of promising talent. Love’s numbers are extremely similar to Trevor’s significantly worse situation. Edited October 31, 2023 by MacReady 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFP7 Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 1 minute ago, MacReady said: No it’s really not. Lawrence had Urban Meyer and nothing at WR. Love has a good, established offensive minded head coach with NFL experience and plenty of promising talent. Love’s numbers are extremely similar to Trevor’s significantly worse situation. I'm not sure we should accept MLF as an established offensive mind. Tennessee did not have a good offense with him, and his first 3 years as head coach of GB he was working with a top 2 o-line, great running backs, all-time great QB, and the best WR in football. I think I could have coached that offense. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 1 minute ago, MacReady said: You’ve used Aaron Rodgers sitting for four years for the past four years as evidence why Love should have been picked and sat for four years and now it’s not convenient for your argument you s at it’s worthless. It’s not worthless, and you know it. You’re better than this. It’s extremely valuable while also neglecting that Love did have actual starts leading up to this year. It's value is in the ability to slowly rework fundamentals. It has no value when it comes to reading defenses or learning the timing of the offense you're in as well as the skills you're throwing to. I'll ask you this. Jordan Love pre-season 2021, vs Jordan Love today. Noticeable improvement to you? It works. You still need reps with your guys, seeing how defenses play you though. No ability to simulate that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 1 minute ago, KFP7 said: I'm not sure we should accept MLF as an established offensive mind. Tennessee did not have a good offense with him, and his first 3 years as head coach of GB he was working with a top 2 o-line, great running backs, all-time great QB, and the best WR in football. I think I could have coached that offense. I can grant that, and it’s a good point. I can’t grant he’s a BAD one similar to clearly BAD coaches other rookie quarterbacks have had. He’s not Jeff Fischer, Urban Meyer, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packfanfb Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 24 minutes ago, MacReady said: Stop citing the supporting cast. His supporting cast is typical. I'm pretty much with you on the Love stuff to date except for this. Love's supporting cast is, in a word, "blah." There isn't a single guy there who a team even remotely gameplans for before Sunday. No one to fear. No one who makes any plays. This is painfully obvious when you watch the Packers and then watch other teams play offense. There's nothing there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire12 Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 5 minutes ago, MacReady said: No it’s really not. Lawrence had Urban Meyer and nothing at WR. Love has a good, established offensive minded head coach with NFL experience and plenty of promising talent. Love’s numbers are extremely similar to Trevor’s significantly worse situation. you think a WR that had put up 1 season over 1000 yards and a career total of around 6000 yards was a nothing at WR?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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