mdonnelly21 Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Starting a team from scratch.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmen Cygni Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Champ Bailey. CB has become one of the most important positions on defense in the modern day NFL. Also, if Steve Smith claims he was the toughest CB he has ever faced, that's good enough for me and speaks volumes to Bailey's game. Great character as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetzger Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Owens is the better player, but specifically in the scenario where we're an expansion franchise starting a new team from scratch? Bailey without hesitation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Bailey. Owens is better...but Bailey plays a more valuable position and I don’t have to worry about him creating drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raves Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 I picked Owens. As much of a trouble Owens has been for some of his teams, his ability to help even bad QBs is unmistakable and he has always given 100% regardless of his team and QB, unlike someone like Moss. Bailey although an amazing player, can still only affect one offensive player and on an expansion team that will likely have holes everywhere else on defense, his impact on the team will be much less than a single dominant WR that a new franchise can rely on producign regardless of opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmen Cygni Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 23 minutes ago, Raves said: I picked Owens. As much of a trouble Owens has been for some of his teams, his ability to help even bad QBs is unmistakable and he has always given 100% regardless of his team and QB, unlike someone like Moss. Bailey although an amazing player, can still only affect one offensive player and on an expansion team that will likely have holes everywhere else on defense, his impact on the team will be much less than a single dominant WR that a new franchise can rely on producign regardless of opponent. I must admit this is a surprise answer coming directly from a fan who witnessed quite a defensive turnaround by drafting an excellent up and coming CB in Lattimore. Obviously there are more parts and circumstances involving the Saints uptick in defensive play, but the premier CB is absolutely a key catalyst there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raves Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 Just now, Carmen Cygni said: I must admit this is a surprise answer coming directly from a fan who witnessed quite a defensive turnaround by drafting an excellent up and coming CB in Lattimore. Obviously there are more parts and circumstances involving the Saints uptick in defensive play, but the premier CB is absolutely a key catalyst there. Oh don't get me wrong, I love Lattimore, but there are a lot of moving pieces on defense, I mean let's look at the Oakland defenses with Scramble. He was dominant, the rest of the defense... not so much. Lattimore would be in the same boat without other pieces around him capable of doing their job. I mean Cam Jordan is playing at a level where he's getting DPOY consideration, Klein has been the epitome of consistency, Rankins has been demanding double teams, Okafer was good, Crawley has been more than expected, Marcus Williams was doing very well, having a single stud defensive player, like we did with just Cam Jordan the previous years, doesn't make a defense no matter who they are, but a single dominant offensive threat can open up everything on that side of the ball. Do you really think that Jacksonville would be as good as they are with just Chris Ivory? Hell Atlanta is made by Julio Jones' ability to draw pressure from their extremely good RBs, OBJ with the Giants literally made their offense go. So I don't care if you have the most dominant defensive player of all time, they can only do so much when an the offense has priority in what's going to happen in a play, so when a truly dominant defense arises, it's something to behold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmen Cygni Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 21 minutes ago, Raves said: Oh don't get me wrong, I love Lattimore, but there are a lot of moving pieces on defense, I mean let's look at the Oakland defenses with Scramble. He was dominant, the rest of the defense... not so much. Lattimore would be in the same boat without other pieces around him capable of doing their job. I mean Cam Jordan is playing at a level where he's getting DPOY consideration, Klein has been the epitome of consistency, Rankins has been demanding double teams, Okafer was good, Crawley has been more than expected, Marcus Williams was doing very well, having a single stud defensive player, like we did with just Cam Jordan the previous years, doesn't make a defense no matter who they are, but a single dominant offensive threat can open up everything on that side of the ball. Do you really think that Jacksonville would be as good as they are with just Chris Ivory? Hell Atlanta is made by Julio Jones' ability to draw pressure from their extremely good RBs, OBJ with the Giants literally made their offense go. So I don't care if you have the most dominant defensive player of all time, they can only do so much when an the offense has priority in what's going to happen in a play, so when a truly dominant defense arises, it's something to behold. Nice response. Personally, I'm a defensive minded guy so I'd rather take the elite CB who can shut down the opponents best receiving weapon and force them to beat me in some other form or fashion. But that's merely my opinion and preference, and you offer an excellent point and counter-point to that thought process. Kudos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom cody Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 Close but Champ Bailey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 All things considered, give me Champ. He could/has lined up at WR before, and had some return skills as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdonnelly21 Posted December 7, 2017 Author Share Posted December 7, 2017 Oh Don't even give me that! I don't want to hear it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TecmoSuperJoe Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 Love Owens, but if you're building a team from scratch I think you should focus on Quarterback, edge rusher, corner, and offensive tackle. Everything else can come after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 On 12/6/2017 at 10:14 PM, Raves said: Oh don't get me wrong, I love Lattimore, but there are a lot of moving pieces on defense, I mean let's look at the Oakland defenses with Scramble. He was dominant, the rest of the defense... not so much. Lattimore would be in the same boat without other pieces around him capable of doing their job. I mean Cam Jordan is playing at a level where he's getting DPOY consideration, Klein has been the epitome of consistency, Rankins has been demanding double teams, Okafer was good, Crawley has been more than expected, Marcus Williams was doing very well, having a single stud defensive player, like we did with just Cam Jordan the previous years, doesn't make a defense no matter who they are, but a single dominant offensive threat can open up everything on that side of the ball. Do you really think that Jacksonville would be as good as they are with just Chris Ivory? Hell Atlanta is made by Julio Jones' ability to draw pressure from their extremely good RBs, OBJ with the Giants literally made their offense go. So I don't care if you have the most dominant defensive player of all time, they can only do so much when an the offense has priority in what's going to happen in a play, so when a truly dominant defense arises, it's something to behold. Meh. There’s arguments both ways. Megatron was on some really bad teams. Jets-Revis was on some good defenses. You can find an elite player at any position that didn’t get it done because of the talent around them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamondbull424 Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 In this scenario we have the opportunity to look at the hindsight bias of it all. We know Champ Bailey was a professional. Was a dominant corner, usually not the best in the league, but usually top 3-5 every year for just about a decade... in a position where usually players catch fire and flame out within a 3-5 year span. TO was the more dominant player. But if I know over a 10 year span I only have to worry about filling 52 vs 53 spots, that’s huge. The Ravens and the other consistently successful franchises have those players. Ravens had Ray Lewis, Jonathan Ogden, Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs, Marshal Yanda, and Joe Flacco. Even in the case of Flacco, a player doesn’t have to always be elite, he just needs to stabilize the position. Bailey is elite and would stabilize one of the most important positions for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdonnelly21 Posted December 10, 2017 Author Share Posted December 10, 2017 2 hours ago, diamondbull424 said: In this scenario we have the opportunity to look at the hindsight bias of it all. We know Champ Bailey was a professional. Was a dominant corner, usually not the best in the league, but usually top 3-5 every year for just about a decade... in a position where usually players catch fire and flame out within a 3-5 year span. TO was the more dominant player. But if I know over a 10 year span I only have to worry about filling 52 vs 53 spots, that’s huge. The Ravens and the other consistently successful franchises have those players. Ravens had Ray Lewis, Jonathan Ogden, Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs, Marshal Yanda, and Joe Flacco. Even in the case of Flacco, a player doesn’t have to always be elite, he just needs to stabilize the position. Bailey is elite and would stabilize one of the most important positions for years. I would love to hear you breakdown that. Interesting when you discuss Stabilizing the position. What that sounds like to me, is you don't have to be the best, but very solid on a consistent basis. Almost like Aquib Talib has done for the past 8 years or so.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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