Forge Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 22 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said: Read my last paragraph. Dallas scored 10 points. You said: 1 hour ago, Art_Vandalay said: Can I just get one win where the team as a whole isn't firing on all cylinders? I gave you one where CMC wasn't running well. I mean, it's never going to be enough, we know that. Everyone else plays with no talent UDFAs But no, seriously. Its just going to take time for most people. And I can't say I blame them too much (some of the takes are pretty wild - yours are fine, even if I don't agree with how you present them from time to time). If he's the dude, he'll be the dude in 5 years, even if it doesn't look quite as good. If he's not the dude, he won't. People are going to want to see him with a larger sample with various circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 5 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said: PFF Pass Blocking Grade vs. EPA/Play seems like a VERY weird and random combination of stats, especially when we all know PFF's grades are subjective and...at best...questionable. I would love to see Brock Purdy's pressure rate and other objective stats that could tell us how good/bad that offensive line as a unit is. He has the 6th lowest time to pressure per that same guy. The line has gotten much better in recent weeks, which is definitely helpful. Ben Baldwin does a composite of pff, espn and I think SIS and they are like 23rd. I'll see if I can find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 6 minutes ago, NinerNation21 said: I just don't think this is true. What makes Purdy good is his accuracy, diagnosing plays quickly, and reacting to what's happening around him. His anticipation on throws and his pocket awareness allow him to make throws that wouldn't otherwise be there. The man makes out of structure plays every single week. Shanahan isn't controlling him. Purdy is making things look so easy because of his talent. If he was on another team, his skills wouldn't suddenly disappear. And honestly, if he went to another team that has better pass protection, but worse playmakers, he'd probably still be pretty good. When people are floating that Purdy can't be successful on a team with one of the best offensive lines in football, Dallas Goedert, AJ Brown, Smith, Swift we've lost the plot. Hell, there's no reason to think he wouldn't be successful with a better line, CeeDee, Cooks, Ferguson, Pollard and Gallup. People are ostensibly claiming talent poverty for MVP candidates and it's wild. There are very few that can actually claim that (Mahomes has a receiver in Toney who is actively sabotaging their games, so he may count...I would have had had Lamar as a neutral talent guy, but without Andrews, he's probably on the lower half) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 @AFlaccoSeagulls I think this is probably one of the best you'll get since offensive line play is really hard to judge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minutemancl Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 37 minutes ago, Forge said: I like that we have gone from (some) people picking Seattle to win the west at the start of the year to "the 49ers have one of the greatest rosters ever". The Seahawks themselves were so convinced they could win the division less than 2 months ago that they traded a 2nd round pick for Leonard Williams. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinerNation21 Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, Forge said: When people are floating that Purdy can't be successful on a team with one of the best offensive lines in football, Dallas Goedert, AJ Brown, Smith, Swift we've lost the plot. Hell, there's no reason to think he wouldn't be successful with a better line, CeeDee, Cooks, Ferguson, Pollard and Gallup. People are ostensibly claiming talent poverty for MVP candidates and it's wild. There are very few that can actually claim that (Mahomes has a receiver in Toney who is actively sabotaging their games, so he may count...I would have had had Lamar as a neutral talent guy, but without Andrews, he's probably on the lower half) Yeah, so much noise and nonsense out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art_Vandalay Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 8 minutes ago, Forge said: I gave you one where CMC wasn't running well. I mean, it's never going to be enough, we know that. Everyone else plays with no talent UDFAs First off, that wasn't my last paragraph. But I'm glad you gave that example. The best argument you could come up with was, "Well, this one guy on the team didn't play great." But let's not ignore that Jordan Mason and Deebo combined for 100 yds and a TD on the ground and averaged over 6 ypc... Stop looking for examples where Brock carried the team to a victory this year. There are no examples. There are plenty of examples of Brock playing great, but that's not my argument and you know that. Just say your stance on the award is different than mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 31 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said: First off, that wasn't my last paragraph. But I'm glad you gave that example. The best argument you could come up with was, "Well, this one guy on the team didn't play great." But let's not ignore that Jordan Mason and Deebo combined for 100 yds and a TD on the ground and averaged over 6 ypc... Stop looking for examples where Brock carried the team to a victory this year. There are no examples. There are plenty of examples of Brock playing great, but that's not my argument and you know that. Just say your stance on the award is different than mine. Mason had 4 carries, 21 yards when the niners started the drive to be up 35-10. In the first half, he and CMC combined for 17 carries, 56 yards I believe I wasn't looking for examples where he carried them. You asked for an example where not everything was clicking at first, that is what I answered. You moved the requirement to the last paragraph of your original statement after I provided you with an example. They were up 21-7 with the running game being mediocre and CMC losing a fumble inside the 5 yard line. Can you provide me an example where Dak played well against a good defense this year? They all got warts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 46 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said: Just say your stance on the award is different than mine Its actually closer than you think. I don't have Purdy winning the award and I don't think he will win it. i've disliked some of your arguments though. I think your take on Purdy, is 100% fair and I have no issues with it (has played great, not MVP). And as I mentioned earlier, just defining "value" is hard, that's why it's generally a mashup of stats and team performance. Going down that rabbit hole is sketchy. Hard to argue that anyone is more valuable than Purdy when you account for his salary and production. that's a form of value that is just as worthwhile as anything else. They can't put this team together if he's not making 900K but also playing the way he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art_Vandalay Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 36 minutes ago, Forge said: Mason had 4 carries, 21 yards when the niners started the drive to be up 35-10. In the first half, he and CMC combined for 17 carries, 56 yards I believe I wasn't looking for examples where he carried them. You asked for an example where not everything was clicking at first, that is what I answered. You moved the requirement to the last paragraph of your original statement after I provided you with an example. They were up 21-7 with the running game being mediocre and CMC losing a fumble inside the 5 yard line. Can you provide me an example where Dak played well against a good defense this year? They all got warts. Remember when the Patriots got booed by the crowd for losing one regular season game in two years? You're arguing that (assuming I did the math right) 75 rushing yds and a TD (w/ a fumble) in the 1st half is bad production. Y'all are spoiled. And that's not meant to be a jab. You've just had a great team for so long. It's like a millionaire giving a 5 star restaurant a bad review because the food presentation didn't meet his expectations. Dak played the Jets who have an elite defense. But if I'm asked why Dak should be the MVP, I'm not going to point to that game... because that would be silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said: Dak played the Jets who have an elite defense. But if I'm asked why Dak should be the MVP, I'm not going to point to that game... because that would be silly. You should though, he actually played fine and I forgot about it lol. He wasn't great, but it is an elite defense that has stifled other QBs far more than it did him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elevators_rule Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 2 hours ago, Forge said: I like that we have gone from (some) people picking Seattle to win the west at the start of the year to "the 49ers have one of the greatest rosters ever". I mean, statistically the 9ers literally have one of the greatest offenses ever, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art_Vandalay Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 7 minutes ago, Forge said: You should though, he actually played fine and I forgot about it lol. He wasn't great, but it is an elite defense that has stifled other QBs far more than it did him. And that's where we differ. And that's okay. We're all taking the same things into consideration but we're weighting them differently. Wins Stats Opposing defenses Overall team talent Overcoming adversity All of those things matter in the discussion. I just have the last two weighted higher than other folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Forge said: @AFlaccoSeagulls I think this is probably one of the best you'll get since offensive line play is really hard to judge. This is so surprising to me considering when I watch Baltimore, I rarely if ever come away with "damn our offensive line is good". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 5 minutes ago, elevators_rule said: I mean, statistically the 9ers literally have one of the greatest offenses ever, right? Depends on the stat. I mean, they are only 3rd in points per game this year? 2nd in points per play. They are averaging 8 points less per game than the 2013 broncos. I'm not even sure that they are top 15 in points per game over the last 10-15 years, but I'd need more time to dig in. 2013 Denver, 2007 Patriots, 2011 Packers *and* Saints, 2018 chiefs, 2016 Falcons are all among recent teams that scored substantially more points per game than this year's 49ers squad, though you could break it down further and it may be a time / play issue (for example, the saints scored more in 2011 than the 49ers this year on a game basis, but they were less efficient with a slightly lower point per play as they ran nearly 15 more plays per game). In terms of yardage efficiency, they are historic with regards to recent history. Miami and 49ers are tied this year at 6.7 yards per play which is matched by the 2018 Chiefs and 2016 Falcons. I couldn't find anyone higher going back about a decade (Broncos in 2013 were only 6.3 and 07 Pats were only 6.1). 2004 colts were also at 6.7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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