5 UP 5 DOWN Week 12 @ Bengals

[JustPlainNasty]

5 UP 

1. Najee's effort. It wasn't running that I liked most but there was a lot of  good effort in that area. He actually ran more with his pads, thank gawd. The play that I liked most was the pass to Pat over the middle where Najee was there to help push and gain more yards to ensure the 1st down. Thats the stuff you want to see from a team and from winners and dare I say real leaders. 

2. Kenny manning up. I was fearful he'd have a hard time drawing up that courage and fire that he'd shown in the past to throw some strikes. Good for you Kenny. How soon and easily so many forget. That strike to pat down the middle was layered perfectly and it was a big boy throw. There were a couple other throws that guys with weak arms don't make. 

3. Mike Sullivan, the play calling and smoothness was strong. Not perfect but a lot of rhythm. You gotta give credit to Faulkner too because many things appeared to make a lot more sense and they seemed to understand more of what they are doing. Hopefully they get a chance to orchestrate things that much better this week and get George more involved vs Diontae. 

4. Nick the Quick on that closing sack and Trenton Thompson on the pick. Young guys making plays. 

5. Gonna give credit to JPJ without review. I loved that he was all over Chase and if not for two freaky lucky tip passes Chase would've had about 30yds. 

 

5 Down

1. Ravens won and beat a team of over talented under performers.

2. I guess I gotta put Diontae here. Im not hating on him as much for his play because he did make some plays. It was a TD catch no doubt. The lack of effort on the block so close to the play, its not like he was out 15 yds from the play. Then the fumble ughh. Even worse though is the further stupidity to go online and start argiung about it ..dumb..

3. Tomlin not challenging the TD, and his excuse. Does Pittsburgh not have spotters or does Tomlin just not trust anybody. He has one of the worst records with the plays he does challenge and at such questionable times over his career. 

4. Charles Davis on the call of the non TD. Its like he says the corporate thing all the time. I like Charles, but this year in the booth on the last two games especially he's said things as if they were 100% and without debate, only to be 100% wrong. 

5. I don't really have a lot to ***** about today, maybe if I go back and review I'll see some stuff. Perhaps some more effort to get the ball in Georges hands earlier. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by JustPlainNasty

[43M]

2 hours ago, JustPlainNasty said:

5. Gonna give credit to JPJ without review. I loved that he was all over Chase and if not for two freaky lucky tip passes Chase would've had about 30yds. 

Today really convinced me that we have PROBABLY found our CB1 going forward.   He was draped over Chase, and as you said, outside of two fluky tipped passes going right to him and an amazing throw and catch with JPJ all over him, he was damn quiet.

I will say we were lucky they didn't have Tee Higgins today, though.    

[3rivers]

Up

1. we won properly for a change with decent  balanced offence and TOP. 

2. KP threw a few perfect longer passes and had a nice game overall

3. team appears to moving forward and Muth was a part of that in the Seams and elsewhere. 

4. defence was decent but it was a QB2 they played, still 10 points should get a win most of the time

5. we didn't lose an ILB today that I know of , no major injuries other than Austin but no word on the severity yet

6. JPj and Thompson both did well and Thompson got the nice pick as well. Really telegraphed that INT

7. Sullivan and Faulkner - they made a vast improvement in such a short turnaround time. 

 

down

1. the missed call and challenge on the TD.  They need to simplify the rule and get this done and over with. Tomlin should have challenged

2. boswell on the kickoff, wtf was that?  it let them back into it with midfield position.  ST's coverage had less of a chance with such a bad kick.  Kickoffs should go out of the endzone when kickers can kick 60 yard FG's . tomlin needs to go over to gum chewer and let him have a few words even if spit is flying in the process, boswell too

3. I thought the front should have had more sacks and as a result more TO's resulting . Close often, so pressure was still decent

4. tomlin - missed the challenge and for allowing this team and it's fan base to have bad OC for this long.  Maybe that finally over with as Sullivan appears to work to the players and teams strengths vs defences weakness

5. having problems using up the 5+ downs in these threads this week

wait! how can I forget about dionte giving up on that turnover

36 minutes ago, 43M said:

I will say we were lucky they didn't have Tee Higgins today, though

no doubt, but Patrick appears to be playing a bit better lately as well. What about signing Higgins next year, would you consider?

[warfelg]

7 hours ago, JustPlainNasty said:

3. Tomlin not challenging the TD, and his excuse. Does Pittsburgh not have spotters or does Tomlin just not trust anybody. He has one of the worst records with the plays he does challenge and at such questionable times over his career. 

 

We do not have anyone that does that. 

I’ll give the short version of my - Tomlin was good at challenges but then Al Riveron took over and basically the whole NFLs replay success tanked. And as they narrow the field of what coaches can and can’t challenge it becomes harder and harder to win. The catch/not catch is the biggest losing effort. 

https://abc7news.com/sports/inside-the-often-chaotic-nfl-challenge-process/12753736/

I find this article gives a good view into what goes on. 

To also think of the strange of it:

In the Bills-Eagles game, AJ Brown had a catch, 3 steps, turns his shoulders, ball comes out, incomplete. 

Int he Chargers-Ravens game Keenan Allen had a catch, 3 small steps, tries to turn, ball comes out, fumble. 
 

Edit - 

I take I wouldn’t disagree with that I saw: DJ is a guy that has a history of timely drops and issues bringing the ball in at times. That could have been part of why it wasn’t challenged. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by warfelg

[warfelg]

And before it gets twisted:

Tomlin should have challenged the play. 
 

My stance is that I don’t think it’s as automatic of a turnover that Staratore thinks. That’s the first time I’ve heard “3 steps and the play is dead in the EZ”. usually if a defender makes contact like that, even on the 3rd step, the surviving the ground part still comes into play. 

IMO if we didn’t fumble the play right after that, I don’t think his lack of challenge looks as bad. But I also personally think that’s what makes the lack of effort by DJ on that play far worse. 

Personally I’m one that doesn’t care a ton for what challenge records are. Sometimes it’s worth a challenge if you team has no momentum and it feels like a bounce could make it go your way and you lose it. 

So in that sense I don’t have an issue. My issue with Tomlins challenge issues are it’s not really used in support of players individually. 
 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by warfelg

[MOSteelers56]

I thought Elandon Roberts looked pretty good. He was flying around. I don't know if he actually did well, but I saw him around the ball a lot. I was worried about his signing, but he has looked pretty good so far. Hopefully one of the other guys can step up and we can stay healthy. 

[VigilantZombie]

5 Up

1. Najee Harris - overall, much better running this week, I think Faulkner being elevated has already had a positive effect on the running game.

2. Play calling - while we did struggle to sustain drives the sequence of play calling had a lot more sensibility to it imo

3. TJ MF Watt - dude went off this week.

4.  Turnovers - Getting an Int in this game when we got it really pushed our team over the top.

5. George Pickens/Friermuth- when these guys were targeted they made a big impact.

6. OL run blocking - When running, overall I think they did really well

 

5 Down

1. Diontae Johnson - Man if you're not inactive for the next game it's absolutely b.s. your actions Sunday were cut worthy.

2. Secondary - could you cover someone? Anyone? Jpj did well overall but there were times, like the TD to Sample, where guys were completely uncovered.

3. Pass Blocking - ...Left a lot to be desired. 

4. KP - I know he made some really good throws and some nice runs but that decision making still has me shaking my head.

5. Tomlin - the one time you don't throw the challenge flag and you should have.

[3rivers]

9 minutes ago, VigilantZombie said:

5. Tomlin - the one time you don't throw the challenge flag and you should have.

over the years there have been many times.  The team should figure this out so it doesn't happen again. It's not all on tomlin, since he doesn't have a TV on the sidelines.  They should have one though! If the HC is the one to  make the challenge , why doesn't HE have access to the footage right in front of him? Doesn't that make more sense? 

If they hire someone 'upstairs'  to watch, then that person gets the blame. Let the HC have a TV with all the angles to decide. 

[VigilantZombie]

56 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

over the years there have been many times.  The team should figure this out so it doesn't happen again. It's not all on tomlin, since he doesn't have a TV on the sidelines.  They should have one though! If the HC is the one to  make the challenge , why doesn't HE have access to the footage right in front of him? Doesn't that make more sense? 

If they hire someone 'upstairs'  to watch, then that person gets the blame. Let the HC have a TV with all the angles to decide. 

The only issue with that is that they only have a split second to make the decision to challenge before the next team is rushing to make a play. Unless what you are challenging is your phone offense.

[warfelg]

2 minutes ago, VigilantZombie said:

The only issue with that is that they only have a split second to make the decision to challenge before the next team is rushing to make a play. Unless what you are challenging is your phone offense.

Yea I looked into the rules on this some:

No video on the sideline from TV feed allowed. Booth can only use TV replay but it’s on a 10 sec delay. Only on field replay is through Jumbotron. 

Home teams will rarely show a replay that benefits the away team. Just not worth it. The booth would rely on the network replaying the play fast enough, which they rarely do. On the field needs to rely on players saying something. 

Let’s say it’s a 25 sec play clock. About 15 is spent celebrating and TV coverage will be on that. In that time the FG unit gets on. So at 10 seconds left on the playclock the TV replay kicks in but the booth won’t see it until the playclock expires. 

NCAA doesn’t do much right but doing the sky judge every play auto reviewed is one of the best things they’ve done. There’s very very few reasons to have a coach challenge then. 

The NFLs setup of one guy watching all games is absurd. I get it was to make calls uniform by having one guy do it, but it’s not working. They need a NCAA/VAR style system to just take care of this stuff automatically. 

[JustPlainNasty]

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

Yea I looked into the rules on this some:

No video on the sideline from TV feed allowed. Booth can only use TV replay but it’s on a 10 sec delay. Only on field replay is through Jumbotron. 

Home teams will rarely show a replay that benefits the away team. Just not worth it. The booth would rely on the network replaying the play fast enough, which they rarely do. On the field needs to rely on players saying something. 

Let’s say it’s a 25 sec play clock. About 15 is spent celebrating and TV coverage will be on that. In that time the FG unit gets on. So at 10 seconds left on the playclock the TV replay kicks in but the booth won’t see it until the playclock expires. 

NCAA doesn’t do much right but doing the sky judge every play auto reviewed is one of the best things they’ve done. There’s very very few reasons to have a coach challenge then. 

The NFLs setup of one guy watching all games is absurd. I get it was to make calls uniform by having one guy do it, but it’s not working. They need a NCAA/VAR style system to just take care of this stuff automatically. 

Id hire Hoge to be the guy to do this. Dude is a so aware & a hawk at everything, tends to be unflappable and he already does so much for the Steelers. Tomlin's excuse of it evens out is not good enough and its actually kind of ignorant or asinine. Its like making an excuse for not wearing a seatbelt or a helmet or not strapping in a load you are hauling, you have the choice to not do it, I get it, but you are dealing with everybody else's stuff / livelihoods here. For somebody that puts so much emphasis on THIS WEEKs game and just winning today, not next week or down the road...the excuse doesn't fly at all and is quite contradictory. Its just ego & stubbornness. 

Hoge would alert that it was close. He for sure has two feet down and I believe the third. Thanks Hoge, Im not comfortable in challenging cause I don't want to lose one of my 3 first half timeouts vs this back up quarterback just in case. Thats a much better scenario than "I didnt get a good view and the home team didn't tee it up for me to see again. It happens, but those things tend to even out" 

Edited November 27, 2023 by JustPlainNasty

[warfelg]

5 minutes ago, JustPlainNasty said:

Id hire Hoge to be the guy to do this. Dude is a so aware & a hawk at everything and he already does so much for the Steelers. Tomlin's excuse of it evens out is not good enough and its actually kind of ignorant or asinine. Its like making an excuse for not wearing a seatbelt or a helmet or not strapping in a load you are hauling, you have the choice to not do it I get it, but you are dealing with everybody else's stuff / livelihoods here. For somebody that puts so much emphasis on THIS WEEKs game and just winning today, not next week or down the road...the excuse doesn't fly at all and is quite contradictory. Its just ego & stubbornness. 

I don’t disagree.  This is more so feedback on the “it was so obvious on replay” retort.  Even some of the best coaches at challenging admit that it’s often a gut reaction because of how fast the game moves.  They often call the process from the coaches challenging “organized chaos” because of how quickly things move. 

Of course I would put this out there though:

DJ has GOT to squeeze that ball better and not even make that a question.  That was not a great punch out by the defender and it more came out as he was hitting the ground and got landed on.  And given his history of timely drops, I assumed it was a drop right away too despite his reaction.

Edited November 27, 2023 by warfelg

[Steeler Hitman]

12 hours ago, JustPlainNasty said:

Big thanks for you starting this back up consistently.  I think the five up and five down provide some good feedback on how the group see and access the game played and the players/coaches performances.👍

 

5 UP 

1. Najee's effort. It wasn't running that I liked most but there was a lot of  good effort in that area. He actually ran more with his pads, thank gawd. The play that I liked most was the pass to Pat over the middle where Najee was there to help push and gain more yards to ensure the 1st down. That's the stuff you want to see from a team and from winners and dare I say real leaders. 

 I have been defending Najee throughout the year.  I get and understand Jalen's explosiveness and upside. But I think today showed why the team needs BOTH players. It is like having a great lead-off hitter and clean-up man in baseball. These two have different styles and compliment each other very well. The Bengals keyed on Jalen and Najee made them pay. When defenses key on Najee, Jalen has made them pay. I think they should be viewed as 1A and 1B.  They are a very good tandem for this offense. Najee is a leader and great teammate. Let's not forget the year we had Bell and Blount. They had two excellent backs and one was definitely a hostage and not volunteer.  He is not Barry Sanders, but he is a high character guy and solid teammate. 

2. Kenny manning up. I was fearful he'd have a hard time drawing up that courage and fire that he'd shown in the past to throw some strikes. Good for you Kenny. How soon and easily so many forget. That strike to pat down the middle was layered perfectly and it was a big boy throw. There were a couple other throws that guys with weak arms don't make. 

Success breeds confidence.  We have all wondered what this team could do with fast starts and consistent play calling. Everything was there except the TD's. Many fans want to compare players and situations. Kenny is young and is getting battle tested through adversity. The growth through that will help him going forward. He has not played a full two season's worth of games yet. I am not saying he's the next Marion, Big Ben, Drew brews, or A-A Ron, but I believe he will develop into a "winning and mature QB." I see him as being more than simply a game manager, but eventually can develop into a game changer.

3. Mike Sullivan, the play calling and smoothness was strong. Not perfect but a lot of rhythm. You gotta give credit to Faulkner too because many things appeared to make a lot more sense and they seemed to understand more of what they are doing. Hopefully they get a chance to orchestrate things that much better this week and get George more involved vs Diontae. 

Big kudos for the things that they did to rally the team and get some offensive cohesion. It wasn't perfect, but getting 400 yards, moving the ball, and having some positives, are things to grow and expand from. I know statistically the Bengals are not "the best defense." However, they have some player there and have beat the Steelers 4 of the last 5 prior to yesterday's Steelers win. That includes with a back-up QB and playing against Big Ben. I am also going to give Muth kudos. He played like a top end TE and the best overall effort from a Steelers TE since Heath Miller yesterday.

I try to be objective, but I am not on the Dionte bandwagon and I am ready to move on from him. He is too much feast vs. famine. I agree Pickens neeeds to be the focal point, and I would be looking to develop Austin to fill Dionte's role. More on Dionte on the five down.

4. Nick the Quick on that closing sack and Trenton Thompson on the pick. Young guys making plays.

I love what Herbig brings and I see him as a guy who will carry on the Steelers tradion at OLB/Edge. However, Trenton Thompson has to get the nod here for me. He made a game changing INT. Filling in for Minkah he has come up big. After missing one last week, this one changed the game because Cincy was clearly being out-played, but could have potentially gone up 10-3 or 14-3 despite being dominated offensively. That was a huge game changing INT. 

5. Gonna give credit to JPJ without review. I loved that he was all over Chase and if not for two freaky lucky tip passes Chase would've had about 30yds. 

I am also going to throw in TJ Watt and Keenu Benton. Watt had a drive stopping sack and he helped to create pressure and altered  some throws.  Benton helping to hold the Bengals to 25 yards rushing for the entire game. They were 2-10 on third downs, and averaged 2.2 yards per carry. Papa Smurf Patrick Peterson is playing good ball as well. He is far better than he was early in the season.

 

5 Down

1. Ravens won and beat a team of over talented under performers.

I would have liked a Chargers win, but we took care of our own business. At least the Browns and theTexans lost and that moved the Steelers up.

2. I guess I gotta put Diontae here. Im not hating on him as much for his play because he did make some plays. It was a TD catch no doubt. The lack of effort on the block so close to the play, its not like he was out 15 yds from the play. Then the fumble ughh. Even worse though is the further stupidity to go online and start argiung about it ..dumb.

I never thought he would be AB, in terms of talent and overall playmaking, but he is far too talented a route runner to be where he is. Sometimes I wonder if the juice is worth the squeeze with this guy. He is very inconsistent and his attitude and mentality leave a lot to be desired.  He is talented, but inconsistent and he is not clutch as someone said in the game thread. For as much complaining, whining,and pouting as he does, he does  not seize the moment. He has had some opportunities to make a statement and he has not made the most of his opportunities.  My perception of him is: He is not mature as an NFL player, leaves a lot to be desired as a teammate and veteran leader, should be a #1 option, but is not consistent enough, puts the finger outward instead of inward. Those things are correctable, but only Dionte can fix those things. I am not so sure that he recognizes, agrees, or would want to correct them.  He is not one of my favorite Steelers right now by any means.

3. Tomlin not challenging the TD, and his excuse. Does Pittsburgh not have spotters or does Tomlin just not trust anybody. He has one of the worst records with the plays he does challenge and at such questionable times over his career. 

As i said in the game thread, he is snake bitten on challenges. He is danged if he does or danged if he doesn't. The Bengals did not replay the play which would tell most visiting coaches something. However, the play was not ruled a TD where it would have been automatically reviewed. This is not an issue if Dionte catches the ball cleanly. These are things that have held the offense back and if they make these plays make, the offense and game go differently. The same thing happened with two passes opening drive against the Jaguars with the same WR. I am so over Dionte right now. He is better than that and that is why I point to him more than Coach T on this.

4. Charles Davis on the call of the non TD. Its like he says the corporate thing all the time. I like Charles, but this year in the booth on the last two games especially he's said things as if they were 100% and without debate, only to be 100% wrong. 

A gentleman and likeable guy, but CJ can get on your nerves a la Chris Collingsworth at times. 

I will throw in the tipped passes that turned into positive gains for the Bengals. The ball and flow sometimes swing in both directions, but great teams make these plays and create opportunities for themselves. Hopefully the ball will start bouncing better for the Steelers.

5. I don't really have a lot to ***** about today, maybe if I go back and review I'll see some stuff. Perhaps some more effort to get the ball in Georges hands earlier. 

We all say get Pickens the ball. He needs to be WR1 right now. Maybe Dionte will come around, but right now, he isn't the answer in my book and is in the Hitman doghouse (not that he would care. 😁

Speaking of doghouse. I have been one of the biggest Percy Harvin supporters, but he has not had a great past two games. I expected far more consistency from him. The first punt by him was well placed and poor coverage by Boykin not realizing he was in the endzone. Flipping the field and pinning back-up QB's inside the five yard line, do wonders for your team. I expected him to be elite and he has been very ordinary. There were two or three punts that he could have helped the team out better with besides the one Boykin missed out on.

[JustPlainNasty]

I think it should be stated that Diontae is great at getting open, but not necessarily a great route runner. 

There is a difference. You cannot rely on him being where he is supposed to be when he is supposed to be there or in the way he is supposed to be there. 

He is a great creator & ankle breaker. This is why I think he is so often better as a #2 or #3 option because given time he could be wide open on just about every play as the third choice. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by JustPlainNasty

[3rivers]

4 hours ago, warfelg said:

Yea I looked into the rules on this some:

No video on the sideline from TV feed allowed. Booth can only use TV replay but it’s on a 10 sec delay. Only on field replay is through Jumbotron. 

Home teams will rarely show a replay that benefits the away team. Just not worth it. The booth would rely on the network replaying the play fast enough, which they rarely do. On the field needs to rely on players saying something. 

Let’s say it’s a 25 sec play clock. About 15 is spent celebrating and TV coverage will be on that. In that time the FG unit gets on. So at 10 seconds left on the playclock the TV replay kicks in but the booth won’t see it until the playclock expires. 

NCAA doesn’t do much right but doing the sky judge every play auto reviewed is one of the best things they’ve done. There’s very very few reasons to have a coach challenge then. 

The NFLs setup of one guy watching all games is absurd. I get it was to make calls uniform by having one guy do it, but it’s not working. They need a NCAA/VAR style system to just take care of this stuff automatically. 

maybe the refs should have a red flag and have the option to automatically review plays that are very close.   Then there is a time limit for a team to challenge, or just automatically review it anyways like they do  inside 2 minutes.