The case for not moving on from Tomlin....this year.

[August4th]

I think the Ravens DC would get the job if Mike was gone. That dude looks like another cowher and Tomlin. I think they'd hire a very experience OC to pair with him. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by August4th

[3rivers]

15 minutes ago, warfelg said:

So which is it. This team isn’t talented enough to be 7-4 or they are talented enough to be 9-2?

if you have Porter, Jones  on the sidelines and GP never getting targets, DW not run blocking, OC not using the center of the field, no miracle plays by defence, and with this coaching staff it would be .500 or less

With the best players from the roster playing and good coaching, 9-2 is a stretch, but 7 or 8 proper wins I could see.  Probably more like 7 if the opposition weren't all getting injured  as much as they have prior to playing us. 

19 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Again. Hasn’t even been a year with the FO and year 2 of a rebuild. 

the 23 draft has helped this team, I would say one of their better drafts already . 

21 minutes ago, warfelg said:

They were the exception - because of Brady. But they always kept the cap clear enough to sign guys and moved in the draft to get guys when they needed to. 

Brady was the reason. BB is looking more like the BB from HC browns era BB lately

22 minutes ago, warfelg said:

And that might be having a bigger impact than anything else. 

I lost a fair amount of interest as a result, especially in the draft. This year I was more into the draft and the offseason.   He coul draft WR really good , but other areas there were too many problems. 

13 minutes ago, jebrick said:

 Cowher had up and down years but that got him Plaxico and Ben.

and he finally realized that a legit QB is necessary 

14 minutes ago, jebrick said:

Steelers should have sucked it up and played Mason and built a team.  Now they are hanging in limbo hoping a QB falls to them.

Mason never got a fair chance here. Maybe he never will.  Ben never helped out Mason, having bad OC's and then buried on the depth chart thanks to colbert overpaying mitch, it just goes on  for  Mason. Imagine being drafted where Mason was only to never really get a chance and the few times you did you got KO'd or assaulted  What a career thus far. 

What if when mitch fails, what will it take for tomlin to let Mason have a chance? I doubt he will,  but if mitch keeps losing and the above.500 streak is on the line, what will tomlin do?

[jebrick]

14 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

and he finally realized that a legit QB is necessary 

I believe the story that DanR forced his hand on Ben.  Only Cowher has said he was all in on Ben.  Too many other stories had Cowher pushing for an OT.

[3rivers]

15 minutes ago, jebrick said:

I believe the story that DanR forced his hand on Ben.  Only Cowher has said he was all in on Ben.  Too many other stories had Cowher pushing for an OT.

I read about this online,  I believe DanR was why they got Ben

below, too bad they didn't go into detail about the 3 wins. IIRC (going back a ways)  footlocker ref vs alex smith KC, matt moore dolphins and the bungle in the jungle. Quite a resume of playoff wins from HOF coach?  

 

 

 

[warfelg]

28 minutes ago, jebrick said:

I believe the story that DanR forced his hand on Ben.  Only Cowher has said he was all in on Ben.  Too many other stories had Cowher pushing for an OT.

Colbert, Wiz, DR were all in on Ben.  Cowher wanted Stacy Andrews.

[warfelg]

45 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

if you have Porter, Jones  on the sidelines and GP never getting targets, DW not run blocking, OC not using the center of the field, no miracle plays by defence, and with this coaching staff it would be .500 or less

Take the coaching staff out of it.

[warfelg]

1 hour ago, jebrick said:

not talented enough to be 7-4.  They won some games that they should not have (Cleveland and Ravens) but their losses are blowouts.  When the bounces do not go their way they can't generate any offense.

Tomlin ( and Colbert) have kept them competitive when Ben went down.  In comparison, the Colts had 12 years where they drafted and average of 28th but once Manning went down their lack of talent got them 1 win. Bobby Breathard got fired over 3 bad drafts.   Cowher had up and down years but that got him Plaxico and Ben.

Steelers should have sucked it up and played Mason and built a team.  Now they are hanging in limbo hoping a QB falls to them.

So this is what my feeling is.  If Tomlin (and Colbert) kept them competitive when Ben went down, how is he holding them back now?

Personally I think that the roster is a 7-10, 8-9 type roster with average coaching.

[warfelg]

1 hour ago, August4th said:

I think the Ravens DC would get the job if Mike was gone. That dude looks like another cowher and Tomlin. I think they'd hire a very experience OC to pair with him. 

I doubt they would pay enough for a very experienced OC.  Just isn't the Rooney way.

[warfelg]

1 hour ago, AFF said:

I disagree on the level of appeal for the Steelers HC gig…job security, young pieces on offense and star power on defense

Jobs for HC's these days matter on getting to pick their QB.  We'd be a mid option based on that.

[43M]

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

So this is what my feeling is.  If Tomlin (and Colbert) kept them competitive when Ben went down, how is he holding them back now?

Personally I think that the roster is a 7-10, 8-9 type roster with average coaching.

I said it before and I will say it again....Tomlin teams overachieve when we are injured/untalented/mediocre and underachieve when we have top level talent.

I give him credit for coaching teams up through bad situations, but this team runs so hot and cold, regardless of talent and has done so pretty much his entire tenure.   Not just game to game either....but even quarter to quarter.    Its sad how often this team rarely has had a full four quarters of quality play in a game under him.   Even when talented, there are so many times where this team has been flat for 2 or 3 quarters a game.

Someone posted something the other day regarding Tomlin's career losses, and how about half of them were to sub .500 teams.   While I know that can be misleading without context, most Steelers fans are aware of how often we play down to competition under Tomlin.

Bottom line....I don't think Tomlin is necessarily "holding us back" RIGHT NOW, but I dont feel he elevates this team enough to ever take us where we want to go.   I think Tomlin could help another team get on track, but I feel like he peaked here long ago and doesn't have much left to offer.    He came into a great situation and built most of his reputation based on that.  I dont feel he is the guy to take us from where we are now to where we want to get back to.

 

[43M]

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

Jobs for HC's these days matter on getting to pick their QB.  We'd be a mid option based on that.

Not wrong, but anyone dumb enough to choose to coach teams like the Chargers or Browns over us just because they have better QB situations deserves all the misery coming their way.

Bears have alot of draft capital, but they are extremely dysfunctional too.

The Steelers aren't quite as appealing as they were under Dan Rooney, but still much more stable than most organizations in this league.

[Dcash4]

10 minutes ago, 43M said:

Browns over us just because they have better QB situations

I ignored it the first time in the thread, it shall not be ignored a second. 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/deshaun-watson-21753/

[3rivers]

2 hours ago, warfelg said:

Stacy Andrews.

in RD1?  

2 hours ago, warfelg said:

Take the coaching staff out of it.

no. Can't take credit and not blame.

2 hours ago, warfelg said:

I doubt they would pay enough for a very experienced OC.  Just isn't the Rooney way.

how does this make sense?  Pay a good OC what he is worth.  They overpay players, why not try to pay a good coach accordingly?

46 minutes ago, 43M said:

I said it before and I will say it again....Tomlin teams overachieve when we are injured/untalented/mediocre and underachieve when we have top level talent.

exactly

47 minutes ago, 43M said:

most Steelers fans are aware of how often we play down to competition under Tomlin

do media people like florio, simms and eisen know this ?

48 minutes ago, 43M said:

He came into a great situation and built most of his reputation based on that.  I dont feel he is the guy to take us from where we are now to where we want to get back to.

sadly this is exactly the case. Now it comes down to if we can stomach whats in store because  it could be several years before major changes happen.  Too bad TJ and Minkah will waste their careers here, but they aren't the only players that played on non SB teams over the history of the nfl.

22 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

I ignored it the first time in the thread, it shall not be ignored a second. 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/deshaun-watson-21753/

watson was perfect with broken shoulder and well uhmm, some pain relief lets say  Lets hope he doesn't keep playing like that once he returns.  

[warfelg]

54 minutes ago, 43M said:

Someone posted something the other day regarding Tomlin's career losses, and how about half of them were to sub .500 teams.   While I know that can be misleading without context, most Steelers fans are aware of how often we play down to competition under Tomlin.

I posted a stat of the weird after the Cards loss, but when 6.5 favorites Tomlin has 8 losses since becoming a coach.  Belichick has 13, Harbaugh has 13.

 

56 minutes ago, 43M said:

Even when talented, there are so many times where this team has been flat for 2 or 3 quarters a game.

It's not universally on coaches though.  I think the impact Tomlin has there is he very highly values ball security.  And I would say often to a detriment.  I think that's what causes the flatness sometimes because some players think they have a game they could "go off" in and all the sudden they aren't involved so they become disinterested.

1 hour ago, 43M said:

I dont feel he is the guy to take us from where we are now to where we want to get back to.

This is just my gut feeling and I have nothing to back it up - if we move on from Tomlin the next coach will not get us back to a SB either.  And I know that's not a reason to keep Tomlin.  

48 minutes ago, 43M said:

but still much more stable than most organizations in this league.

I think that would be the biggest reason we would end up with someone.  We aren't in position to draft a top QB and the FA QB's are meh, so I don't see a coach tying themselves to that.  Art likely won't pay a new coach as much as Tomlin so I think we would be behind on that.  Stability of time to get things right would be the only thing to really sell IMO.

[warfelg]

9 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

in RD1?  

Yes

9 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

no. Can't take credit and not blame.

I'm not trying to take credit and not blame, rather judging if you think this team with as talented as the record says or as the stats say.

10 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

how does this make sense?  Pay a good OC what he is worth.  They overpay players, why not try to pay a good coach accordingly?

Player money comes form the CBA, coach money is out of owners pockets.

11 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

exactly

Not quite, but we ignore injuries when they have an impact.

11 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

do media people like florio, simms and eisen know this ?

Yes, which is why they say the same things after these losses every time.

12 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

Now it comes down to if we can stomach whats in store because  it could be several years before major changes happen.

I'm sorry saying this like this after 20 years of having a shot and 2 years of starting to rebuild really makes me sour on fans.  I've been a fan of some REALLY crap teams and this team is still much better than them.

13 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

watson was perfect with broken shoulder and well uhmm, some pain relief lets say  Lets hope he doesn't keep playing like that once he returns. 

And there's coaches that would rather work with him than Kenny or some QB picked 20+