Draft Discussion 2.0

[Mind Character]

28 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I'm all about a qb at 1, I just want this absurd amount of draft capital every year.

I'm with you on that. Somehow someway we need a 3rd QB needy team to do a double trade up a la the eagles and Wentz.

I could see Denver doing that if they can get at least number 6 than we'll get a worthy trade.

If we can get 3 QBs to go in the top 6, then we have our cake and eat it too with a trade.

i hope Baker goes to the Senior Bowl and balls out but our eyes are only on Darnold if he declares.

28 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Solid career, no doubt, but not when you look at the guys we passed on.  I don't think anyone would say he justified his draft spot.

Facts.

[Mastercheddaar]

3 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

You saying we need some more of those "can't miss" guys at the top, like Warren, Brown, Gilbert, TRich, Mingo, Winslow, Braylon, etc?

As you can see, we've gone that route too. 

One in the hand is worth two in the bush. There are 4 players in this draft that I feel are completely worth taking. Darnold, Barkley, Chubbs and Fitzpatrick. 

Darnold and Rosen are going with the top 2. That'll leave us with Barkley, Chubbs or Fitzpatrick there at #3 through 5#. Name a player that would rather have than any of those 3 I just listed. You trade back too far 8th and beyond, you risk NOT getting one of them. AND for what, another first next year? Maybe a 2nd and a 3rd as well? Just look at the players and my reasoning:

Fitzpatrick instantly improves a position of need. He can play any DB spot we put him at. 

Chubbs with Garrett and a fresh Ogbah backing them up would make our pass rush top 5 in the league. 

AND Barkley would be Darnold's best friend. A hard nose back that can catch the ball if he gets into trouble. 

Take the franchise QB and the impact player. Call it a day. I doubt anyone would disagree with picking Darnold and one of the 3. If they bust then they bust. Hindsight is always going to be 20/20. 

That is all

Mastercheddaar

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

27 minutes ago, Mastercheddaar said:

One in the hand is worth two in the bush. There are 4 players in this draft that I feel are completely worth taking. Darnold, Barkley, Chubbs and Fitzpatrick. 

Darnold and Rosen are going with the top 2. That'll leave us with Barkley, Chubbs or Fitzpatrick there at #3 through 5#. Name a player that would rather have than any of those 3 I just listed. You trade back too far 8th and beyond, you risk NOT getting one of them. AND for what, another first next year? Maybe a 2nd and a 3rd as well? Just look at the players and my reasoning:

Fitzpatrick instantly improves a position of need. He can play any DB spot we put him at. 

Chubbs with Garrett and a fresh Ogbah backing them up would make our pass rush top 5 in the league. 

AND Barkley would be Darnold's best friend. A hard nose back that can catch the ball if he gets into trouble. 

Take the franchise QB and the impact player. Call it a day. I doubt anyone would disagree with picking Darnold and one of the 3. If they bust then they bust. Hindsight is always going to be 20/20. 

That is all

Mastercheddaar

That's a great phrase to underline and bold or whatever else, but it's nowhere near a description of this situation.

As draft prospects they are all  "in the bush", none of them have proven a single, minuscule thing at the pro level.

Youre projecting what you HOPE they BECOME, not what they actually ARE.

It's as if you hadn't even considered the fact that one of them may bust. 

 

[Mind Character]

3 hours ago, Bonanza23 said:

IF we get a franchise qb #1 I don’t want to trade down this year. I want a top player be it Minkah(who I’d prefer) Barkley (if you deem him elite) Chubb whomever. My biggest reason to trade down is if you can’t get a qb and I always like having the draft capital to move up if possible. I think this draft is very top heavy with the elite talent but drops off to good talent really quick. Now if you want another first next year I’d be ok trading one of our seconds to get one. Especially if you think next years draft can potentially be better. 

Btw can someone tell me why Chubb is better than Ogbah?  Not trying to be an idiot I just haven’t watched him much. 

What we hope Ogbah will develop to be in terms of a pass rusher, Bradley Chubb is already there and plays nastier with the already advanced technique of a pro.

Technique wise, he's closer to Bosa coming out of college (but Bosa is still a tier above him with hand usage), and a similar athlete to Bosa as well (he's not going to test amazingly and people are going to question things like they did when Bosa ran in the 4.8s and didn't jump off the charts).

His relentlessness and pure strength eclipses Bosa as Chubb has made multiple plays in his career (these will be played repeatedly during draft buildup) where he throws an OLineman and pursues a run down the field over 30 yards and gets a strip sack.

He naturally has insane instincts for the strip sack.

He's just better than Ogbah and based on what I've seen from EO, will always be better.

EO is still a hell of a player and is a wrecking machine against the run but he's just not a down in and down out force that beats his man 1 on 1 on an island despite all his physical gifts. He came on late in the season, but was completely ineffective in pass rushing situations until then.

Ogbah is not a natural pass rusher but is an amazing athlete and a run stopping specialist.

He does not win decisively with technique even though he's a better athlete than anyone on the field right up there with Myles.

Chubb comes in day 1 and causes so much havoc that he will demand chipping and double teams or else he will have his way....problem is if they do that who's going to chip and double/triple team Myles Garrett.

That's a positional force on the field that I think we really need. EO will supplement that positions and like Dane Fowler on the Jags can still get 6-7 sacks a year and thump in the run on run downs.

The versatility of stunt rushes would be amazing with EO on the inside, next to Larry O, w/ Chubb and Garrett on the ends. That could grow to be a 3rd down nightmare for opposing offenses especially if we give them false looks then bltiz Jamie Collins etc.

[Bonanza23]

26 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

What we hope Ogbah will develop to be in terms of a pass rusher, Bradley Chubb is already there and plays nastier with the already advanced technique of a pro.

Technique wise, he's closer to Bosa coming out of college (but Bosa is still a tier above him with hand usage), and a similar athlete to Bosa as well (he's not going to test amazingly and people are going to question things like they did when Bosa ran in the 4.8s and didn't jump off the charts).

His relentlessness and pure strength eclipses Bosa as Chubb has made multiple plays in his career (these will be played repeatedly during draft buildup) where he throws an OLineman and pursues a run down the field over 30 yards and gets a strip sack.

He naturally has insane instincts for the strip sack.

He's just better than Ogbah and based on what I've seen from EO, will always be better.

EO is still a hell of a player and is a wrecking machine against the run but he's just not a down in and down out force that beats his man 1 on 1 on an island despite all his physical gifts. He came on late in the season, but was completely ineffective in pass rushing situations until then.

Ogbah is not a natural pass rusher but is an amazing athlete and a run stopping specialist.

He does not win decisively with technique even though he's a better athlete than anyone on the field right up there with Myles.

Chubb comes in day 1 and causes so much havoc that he will demand chipping and double teams or else he will have his way....problem is if they do that who's going to chip and double/triple team Myles Garrett.

That's a positional force on the field that I think we really need. EO will supplement that positions and like Dane Fowler on the Jags can still get 6-7 sacks a year and thump in the run on run downs.

The versatility of stunt rushes would be amazing with EO on the inside, next to Larry O, w/ Chubb and Garrett on the ends. That could grow to be a 3rd down nightmare for opposing offenses especially if we give them false looks then bltiz Jamie Collins etc.

Thanks for the write up!  I took today off to watch full games of players and N.C. State just so happens to be one of the teams. Watched the full Clemson N.C. State game. To see Finley. Add to what you’ve said above looks like he can drop back in coverage if needed. If he’s BPA at our pick I’d be game to take him. Assuming obviously we take a qb. 

[Thomas5737]

Statistically Ogbah had a better year than Garrett. Through 10 games each Garrett has 2 more sacks but Ogbah has a slight tackle lead, 2 more forced fumbles, 3 times as many stuffs and 6 times as many passes defensed. He also blocked a kick. As far as pass rushing specifically neither really made an impact. Ogbah seemed to run a lot of inside stunts. Either way, we're well off at defensive end and have depth so any pick for a defensive lineman is a luxury pick at this stage. Whether or not we are in a position to draft luxury picks seems fairly obvious. Don't try to improve a strength with a winless team, build up your weaknesses.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

Another point to consider with Ogbah and Garrett and their sack numbers is at no time have they been able to pin their ears back and just get after the qb as we're playing with a lead and the opposing offense has to throw the ball.

[Mind Character]

2 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Statistically Ogbah had a better year than Garrett. Through 10 games each Garrett has 2 more sacks but Ogbah has a slight tackle lead, 2 more forced fumbles, 3 times as many stuffs and 6 times as many passes defensed. He also blocked a kick. As far as pass rushing specifically neither really made an impact. Ogbah seemed to run a lot of inside stunts. Either way, we're well off at defensive end and have depth so any pick for a defensive lineman is a luxury pick at this stage. Whether or not we are in a position to draft luxury picks seems fairly obvious. Don't try to improve a strength with a winless team, build up your weaknesses.

Stuffs are in the RUN game.

Passes Defensed are knock downs at the line (Garrett has 1; Ogbah has 5)

Where was the disruption and affecting of the QB via pass rush? The answer....it was nonexistent and he struggled in terms of QB hurries and pressures even compared to last year.

When Myles wasn't out there Ogbah struggled when not playing the run.

So, I don't think it's a position of strength and I don't think it would be a luxury pick.

The most impactful positions on the field are QB, the guy who chases the QB (DE), and the guy that protects/blocks for the QB.

Those positions have the highest potential to change the complexion of a game in an instant.

Therefore, you never pass on premium talent at those positions unless you have pro-bowl or all pro talent at those positions.

Yes, we have other weaknesses, but there are many in the scouting community that think Bradley Chubb will have similar impact as Joey Bosa; that is, season 1 he can get you 10 sacks, multiple forced fumbles, change an offensive coordinators game plan and blocking assignments....

Your telling me you'd pass on a potential impact talent like that because Ogbah is good at playing the run and still has a lot of upside to develop in other areas.

He's played 2 seasons sans 6 games....he's not an elite rush end...could he keep growing to be one...maybe.

I think upgrading positions of weakness is important but I see pass rushing as a major weakness on this team and not a strength.

 

 

 

[Mind Character]

9 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Another point to consider with Ogbah and Garrett and their sack numbers is at no time have they been able to pin their ears back and just get after the qb as we're playing with a lead and the opposing offense has to throw the ball.

Yeah and also for me it's not really about sack numbers, but QB hurries, pressures, and displacing the QB from a spot.

I posted Ogbahs stats in those effective pass rush indicators last year and although he played only 10 games his stats and play (i.e., just look at how effective his rushes were) were not as good as last year until the very end of his season.

I love him as a player but his skill set is limited and he'd be a great asset toward achieving winning in a supporting and versatile role to players that hop out of bed the better pass rushers in the league.

It really all just comes down to how much I value Chubb.

Either way it should be interesting to see where he goes off the board.

Talk of who's better Chubb, Fitzpatrick, and Barkley will dominate draft talk forums and media as there isn't quite much else to talk about (No elite OTs, CBs, WRs, Safeties, etc...)

It's QB talk and talk about those 3 players...that's about it.

[bosko1616]

Can you imagine the old nascar defense with ogbah, Chubb, and Garrett though. I really think Chubb should be considered at either one or four 

[bosko1616]

Is anyone else starting to see Danny Shelton as a very underwhelming 1st round pick and we might be better off seeing what we can get for him now before it’s widely known. I mean ogunjobi looks legit. Brantley looks like a good interior pass rusher. I think ogbah could probably play UT at 280-290 like he did in his first year. 

[Mind Character]

21 minutes ago, bosko1616 said:

Is anyone else starting to see Danny Shelton as a very underwhelming 1st round pick and we might be better off seeing what we can get for him now before it’s widely known. I mean ogunjobi looks legit. Brantley looks like a good interior pass rusher. I think ogbah could probably play UT at 280-290 like he did in his first year. 

He's not a 43 player. He played in college to success with sacks but in our defense he's strictly an early down run stuffer.

The thing is that's a coveted skill set. He's just not going to get a lot of interior pass rush.

He;s proably a candidate to be traded to 34 team. I'm not sure of his value...maybe a third round pick which to me isn't worth it.

You get what you can out of him and then he walks in free agency.

[Mind Character]

3 things that people will realize by April once people have the time to really watch players.

1. Derwin James is a LB that can play SS and box S versatility roles.

2. Minkah Fitzpatrick is not a FS is a bigger and better covering Jabrill Peppers in the Tyrann Mathieu role. That is, he is a chess piece to be moved around. He played Strong Safety exclusively this year along with nickel S/Corner. He's best in press man coverage as a nickel or boundary Corner or down in the box as an underneath supreme coverage SS. He's a really good football player who can range in the post as FS but it's not something he naturally does. People are calling him a FS now not b/c he plays there, but because he's a converted Corner to Safety and doesn't pack the punch of a typical SS. Soon people will figure this thing out. I'd be willing to bet he is drafted as a CB with Tyrann Mathieu chess piece versatility. He'll be a terror as a nickel player.

3. Connor Williams will go late first at best but most likely will go at the top of the 2nd round.

 

[Mastercheddaar]

5 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

That's a great phrase to underline and bold or whatever else, but it's nowhere near a description of this situation.

As draft prospects they are all  "in the bush", none of them have proven a single, minuscule thing at the pro level.

Youre projecting what you HOPE they BECOME, not what they actually ARE.

It's as if you hadn't even considered the fact that one of them may bust. 

 

They can. But we know where we are picking. 1# and 4# . Trading that away for next year might not be top 5. Picking further and further away from top 5 waters down the chance of hitting on an all pro. 

That is all 

mc

[Dogbite]

Who cares what position you think Minkah Fitzpatrick should play the guy is a great football player that this team current lacks. He would transform the back end of our defense. We have the anti-Barkley sentiment and now I am starting to see more and more - not so sure - about Minkah Fitzpatrick post. It is like Browns fans are afraid of great players.