Bime Mock 2.0. Post Diggs-Houston trade

[onejayhawk]

On 4/5/2024 at 12:47 PM, JBarrett1984 said:

32. KC- Guyton, OT Okla
64. KC- Franklin, WR sore

Where is the Chiefs' trade?

For Guyton, they might trade up. Perfect pick in the slot. 
Franklin is sore? Not as good as #32. Since they signed Hollywood, WR is much less urgent. Look to DL, particularly Edge.

[scar988]

8 hours ago, Falconof Shadows said:

It's all projection for him. He is your classic boom bust player it will come down to him learning technique which doesn't tend to end well 

It ended well for Von Miller. It ended well for Khalil Mack. Both guys were raw coming out and did fine. 

[FalconFan13]

11 hours ago, scar988 said:

It ended well for Von Miller. It ended well for Khalil Mack. Both guys were raw coming out and did fine. 

Aint no way you said Mack was raw he was one of the more polished guys i seen coming out it's why i wanted him in his draft so badly over Clowney.  Mack was one of my favorite prospects of all time.  It's also why i want Latu so much because he is the closest guy i have seen to Mack coming out in the way they play the game with technique and pass rush arsenal coming out.  Both of their IQ were through the roof coming into the nfl for their position.   The knock against both of them was possibly the lack of competition they played. 

I will give you von though as he needed work with his hand usage coming out but he had some good pass rush moves already but he def. had work to do on his technique a bit.    

Now with that said not 1 dang person has explained to me why Turner is still so raw with below avg technique coming out.  What is his problem that Will Anderson and Braswell can learn really good technique and pass rushing arsenal under the Bama coaching staff but in 3 years turner still can't figure it out like those 2 did.  So everyone still calls him raw it just makes no sense.  He could have leaned on the coaching staff or the other 2 pass rushers for help.  But in 3 years he couldn't figure it out?   Thats a serious red flag to me and makes me believe he thinks his athleticism is enough just like Beasley did.

[LinderFournette]

On 4/6/2024 at 6:39 PM, Tugboat said:

Not really a fan of this for the Jaguars.

 

Arnold is...whatever.  It's the en vogue pick for them and they could use a good CB.

Going with Fiske in the 2nd though...he might get pushed up that high, but i'm not sure i like the value.  I also just don't like not coming out of this great WR draft without a WR in the Top-2 Rounds.  I don't mind going DLine in a vacuum...but i don't see it as a big "priority need" unless the value is just too good to pass up.  And it's not here.  Also just throwing the two most premium picks on the defense is...ehhh...the offense needs some love too.  The Defense isn't that bad and has already made some improvements through FA.

Baalke won't touch Fiske imo cuz length.

Offense should be better with a line that gets familiar with each other.

The only offensive spots that might get early playing time is if a top WR fell(thus moving on from Zay in all likely hood) and backup RB(teams on record they want to lessen ettienes workload and Bigsby is well bigsby.

[THE DUKE]

Not sure I see the Bengals giving up #80 to move up 4 spots when Thomas, Arnold, Mitchell, Bowers, Newton, Murphy, Latu, and Mims are all still on the board.  If anything, I could see them trade down from 18 if there isn't a clear top of the board player for them available, and then trade up 5-15 spots a couple times later on in the draft.

[Falconof Shadows]

21 hours ago, scar988 said:

It ended well for Von Miller. It ended well for Khalil Mack. Both guys were raw coming out and did fine. 

I cannot say that I remember the Miller class very well in terms of any evaluations done, but Mack was absolutely not raw he was leagues ahead of where Turner is at this point. Like I said Turner might be good but he is all projection and hoping he can learn technique

[scar988]

16 minutes ago, Falconof Shadows said:

I cannot say that I remember the Miller class very well in terms of any evaluations done, but Mack was absolutely not raw he was leagues ahead of where Turner is at this point. Like I said Turner might be good but he is all projection and hoping he can learn technique

You act like he's 100% raw with his technique. HE's really not. He needs a LOT of work with his hands, but he knows enough to impact early in his career. He can get at least the 6.5 sacks Bud Dupree did and be just as good of a run defender, right away. You bet on that floor with hte potential that he has to be a beast in this scheme.

[Falconof Shadows]

2 minutes ago, scar988 said:

You act like he's 100% raw with his technique. HE's really not. He needs a LOT of work with his hands, but he knows enough to impact early in his career. He can get at least the 6.5 sacks Bud Dupree did and be just as good of a run defender, right away. You bet on that floor with hte potential that he has to be a beast in this scheme.

Well that depends on your preference of what you want in a player, some people prefer high ceilings some people prefer low floors. With this team being built how it is and they want to be in a win now I think the lower floor is the better option for the team. That's why I would prefer a Verse or a Latu, it's fine to have different opinions I just think of this team wants to be in a win-now mode you don't take a risk on a player who might need a lot more time to be ready compared to the other options.

[scar988]

2 minutes ago, Falconof Shadows said:

Well that depends on your preference of what you want in a player, some people prefer high ceilings some people prefer low floors. With this team being built how it is and they want to be in a win now I think the lower floor is the better option for the team. That's why I would prefer a Verse or a Latu, it's fine to have different opinions I just think of this team wants to be in a win-now mode you don't take a risk on a player who might need a lot more time to be ready compared to the other options.

Thing is, Turner has the lowest floor, but his floor is still a guy who should get 6 sacks a year and play great run defense. Verse is a 7-sack and good run D where Latu is an 8-sack floor. Problem is that Latu's ceiling is a 10-sack ceiling where Verse has a 12-sack and Turner has a 20-sack. Give me the guy with the highest ceiling in this situation.

[Falconof Shadows]

Just now, scar988 said:

Thing is, Turner has the lowest floor, but his floor is still a guy who should get 6 sacks a year and play great run defense. Verse is a 7-sack and good run D where Latu is an 8-sack floor. Problem is that Latu's ceiling is a 10-sack ceiling where Verse has a 12-sack and Turner has a 20-sack. Give me the guy with the highest ceiling in this situation.

Well that's where we disagree, I could easily see trying to burn out like other players in the past like a Barkivious Mingo super athletic player but does not have the technique going into the league and relies on speed rush and bulrush only. Some players are able to adopt smart I see his floor as a player who's out of the league after his first contract if he doesn't adapt

[scar988]

28 minutes ago, Falconof Shadows said:

Well that's where we disagree, I could easily see trying to burn out like other players in the past like a Barkivious Mingo super athletic player but does not have the technique going into the league and relies on speed rush and bulrush only. Some players are able to adopt smart I see his floor as a player who's out of the league after his first contract if he doesn't adapt

He has better technique than Keke. Honestly, he's a fantastic run defender. It's like Alabama spent 3 years working on his run defense and being like, Eh, you're pass rush is what it is. And even then, he still improved year over year production wise as a pass rusher. His only real weakness right now is his hands. He can learn. And Morris is all about teaching players.

[Falconof Shadows]

32 minutes ago, scar988 said:

He has better technique than Keke. Honestly, he's a fantastic run defender. It's like Alabama spent 3 years working on his run defense and being like, Eh, you're pass rush is what it is. And even then, he still improved year over year production wise as a pass rusher. His only real weakness right now is his hands. He can learn. And Morris is all about teaching players.

I think we will have to agree to disagree. I just don't see it with his pass rushing abilities and I'm naturally lower on players with little technique 

[Tugboat]

9 hours ago, LinderFournette said:

Baalke won't touch Fiske imo cuz length.

Offense should be better with a line that gets familiar with each other.

The only offensive spots that might get early playing time is if a top WR fell(thus moving on from Zay in all likely hood) and backup RB(teams on record they want to lessen ettienes workload and Bigsby is well bigsby.

Yeah.  Fiske really doesn't fit the "athletic" profile Baalke likes in general.  I don't see that as "his type" of player at all.  Beyond just the lack of length even.  Honestly, length is a little bit more overrated inside, but it does still matter and the overall athleticism can still make a big difference.

 

As far as the offensive side of the ball...

There's still clearly room to improve if a rookie comes in and steals a job away from a vet on the OLine.  And at WR especially...you're acting like having 4 solid WRs is somehow illegal?  Why would drafting a WR mean Zay is gone?  That's stupid.  Just nixing depth for the heck of it.

Like...on an actually good receiving corps, Kirk is a niche WR2.  Gabe Davis was effectively a WR2/3 tweener getting passed on the depth chart...on a team that decided their receiving corps wasn't nearly good enough and basically blew the whole thing up to overhaul it.  Zay is really just a solid WR3/4 that Trevor likes to throw to, who has been pushed up the depth chart a bit as a result.  But you don't really want him as one of your Top-3 WRs if your depth chart is in a good place.  He's exactly the caliber of player it's real nice to have as an extra WR3/4 depth, if a rookie deal somewhere in there makes it affordable.  Duvernay i'm basically just looking at as a "core STer" return man, and niche offensive tool who might be able to step up as a WR3/4 if he has to.

I just really don't see why drafting a rookie WR (who often take some time to acclimatize anyway) would mean they've gotta throw proper depth in the dumpster and jettison Zay like that.

 

It honestly just seems like you kinda hate Trevor and want him to have to make chicken salad with chicken **** for his entire career or something.  Or you just hate having good WR talent and proper depth there.  😆  Aside from Mahomes lately...Top QBs always come with top weapons...and Jaguars ain't gone nothing remotely resembling that.

 

1 hour ago, Falconof Shadows said:

Well that's where we disagree, I could easily see trying to burn out like other players in the past like a Barkivious Mingo super athletic player but does not have the technique going into the league and relies on speed rush and bulrush only. Some players are able to adopt smart I see his floor as a player who's out of the league after his first contract if he doesn't adapt

I mean, Turner is unrefined as a pass rusher, but he's nowhere near Keke Mingo "raw".  Keke was basically just pure "athletic potential" as a pick.  I don't think he really showed much of any natural pass rushing aptitude...and certainly not any real refinement.  The argument was always, "they asked him to play contain" or some dumb thing like that...while ignoring the fact that his pass rushing was pure projection.  Dallas Turner at least has some things on tape that look like an okay, somewhat convincing Pass Rusher at times.  I don't necessarily think his upside is all that high tbh, at least not as a perennial double-digit+ sacks type guy.  I think if that were the case, with his athletic talent and time spent at Bama, you'd have seen even more come out of him just on natural inclinations toward getting after the QB.

But i'm just pretty sour on this Edge class in general.  Particular toward that top end.  For my money, Darius Robinson is probably the most likely candidate to become a true impact, top sack getter type pass rusher...and frankly, he's a bit of a real "tweener".

[scar988]

6 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

Yeah.  Fiske really doesn't fit the "athletic" profile Baalke likes in general.  I don't see that as "his type" of player at all.  Beyond just the lack of length even.  Honestly, length is a little bit more overrated inside, but it does still matter and the overall athleticism can still make a big difference.

 

As far as the offensive side of the ball...

There's still clearly room to improve if a rookie comes in and steals a job away from a vet on the OLine.  And at WR especially...you're acting like having 4 solid WRs is somehow illegal?  Why would drafting a WR mean Zay is gone?  That's stupid.  Just nixing depth for the heck of it.

Like...on an actually good receiving corps, Kirk is a niche WR2.  Gabe Davis was effectively a WR2/3 tweener getting passed on the depth chart...on a team that decided their receiving corps wasn't nearly good enough and basically blew the whole thing up to overhaul it.  Zay is really just a solid WR3/4 that Trevor likes to throw to, who has been pushed up the depth chart a bit as a result.  But you don't really want him as one of your Top-3 WRs if your depth chart is in a good place.  He's exactly the caliber of player it's real nice to have as an extra WR3/4 depth, if a rookie deal somewhere in there makes it affordable.  Duvernay i'm basically just looking at as a "core STer" return man, and niche offensive tool who might be able to step up as a WR3/4 if he has to.

I just really don't see why drafting a rookie WR (who often take some time to acclimatize anyway) would mean they've gotta throw proper depth in the dumpster and jettison Zay like that.

 

It honestly just seems like you kinda hate Trevor and want him to have to make chicken salad with chicken **** for his entire career or something.  Or you just hate having good WR talent and proper depth there.  😆  Aside from Mahomes lately...Top QBs always come with top weapons...and Jaguars ain't gone nothing remotely resembling that.

 

I mean, Turner is unrefined as a pass rusher, but he's nowhere near Keke Mingo "raw".  Keke was basically just pure "athletic potential" as a pick.  I don't think he really showed much of any natural pass rushing aptitude...and certainly not any real refinement.  The argument was always, "they asked him to play contain" or some dumb thing like that...while ignoring the fact that his pass rushing was pure projection.  Dallas Turner at least has some things on tape that look like an okay, somewhat convincing Pass Rusher at times.  I don't necessarily think his upside is all that high tbh, at least not as a perennial double-digit+ sacks type guy.  I think if that were the case, with his athletic talent and time spent at Bama, you'd have seen even more come out of him just on natural inclinations toward getting after the QB.

But i'm just pretty sour on this Edge class in general.  Particular toward that top end.  For my money, Darius Robinson is probably the most likely candidate to become a true impact, top sack getter type pass rusher...and frankly, he's a bit of a real "tweener".

Darius Robinson isn't even a "tweener". He's an IDL. He'll be best in 3T and 5T. No need to count him as an EDGE because EDGES don't play 3T.

[Tugboat]

7 minutes ago, scar988 said:

Darius Robinson isn't even a "tweener". He's an IDL. He'll be best in 3T and 5T. No need to count him as an EDGE because EDGES don't play 3T.

I don't think that's really true.  With his crazy length and ability to work off the edge, there are a ton of teams (particularly 4-3 teams, hybrid fronts, etc) that would absolutely be looking at him as a base end playing off the edge.  So i'd say that more than qualifies him as an "edge defender" for me.  He just also happens to have the size and skillset to reduce down inside...and might end up there, depending on the scheme.  But he's got some clear "tweener" versatility imo.  And a lot of his best work seems to come off the edge - where i'm not all that sold on his impact inside where he struggles more to use his length against IOL inside.

I'd look at it more the other way 'round anyway.  Where...guys who are pure Interior DLinemen, are not guys you're going to ever really play off the edge.  I don't think Darius Robinson is limited by that.  A little scheme specific whether he's a fit for that or not and you ain't gonna be dropping him in coverage much, but lots of scenarios where he makes plenty of sense coming off the edge.  Call him a "poor man's Calais Campbell" for me...who flowed through most of his career as a DE...in 3-4 and 4-3 and hybrid fronts.  I think he's got the same sort of makeup and build.

 

"Edge" is kind of doofy term anyway.  It's easier than getting ultra granular about whether a guy is a 3-5T or 5-7T or a 7-9T specialist or whatever, but makes other things murky instead.  He'd be easier to classify under some sort of old timey DE/OLB distinction.  Where...whether he's in an Even or Odd front, i think Robinson is a base DE.  Which isn't typical of true IDL guys.

I mean heck...he played a ton as a 5/7T in college and the guy put himself through the "Edge" drills at the combine.  And not for nothing neither.  He's got a real long, lean "tweener" build and skillset that imo is going to be best suited on the edge for a lot of teams/schemes/alignments. 

 

It's just obviously weird to be comparing him with guys like Turner/Verse/Latu...as they are very different types of players.  Turner and Latu in particularly, skewed far more the other way...but that doesn't make them pure OLBs only any more than Robinson would be IDL only.  I really hope Robinson doesn't get stuck on a team that is determined to pigeonhole him as an IDL only guy just because of his size.  Decent chance he busts entirely in that case tbh.