Who deserves more blame Hue or Kizer?

[MSURacerDT55]

100% Hue, he's hanging Kizer out to dry knowing HIS GUY is on someone else's roster or still in college. 

[Kathouse Sticks]

I feel like Jim Mora, too. Go to YouTube and watch some of his rants and comments. He talks about the Saints/Browns situation: 

And I’m tired of being close, too!  

 

 

[Powertower]

26 minutes ago, freakygeniuskid said:

 

But mostly, Hue deserves blame for not putting Kizer into situations in which he could succeed (utter abandoning of the run game all year, too many deep passes right away, etc.) and not well utilizing the personnel that he DOES have to make it easier on Kizer (using Duke and the TE's more). I mean, even Britt! NE goes out and signs him to a two year deal, and I guarantee he will be better there because they'll use him better.

This. I've said all season long Hue does not put our team in positions to win games dumb challenges, throwing it from his own end zone, poor decision-making all of it.  

[FGK]

So, here's my thing on the FO blaming. In the past, we've had absolute #$%^ show FO's, that we all (rightly) blamed for making terrible picks. Picks that we knew were terrible the moment they were made. Mohammed Massoqouia. David Veikune. Justin Gilbert. Johnny Manziel. Brandon Weeden. The list goes on and on.

But I think 15+ years of inept FO's has reprogrammed us to expect failure, and we're not sure to do when those bonehead picks aren't there. I mean, where are those picks with this regime? Coleman isn't great but he hasn't been atrocious and the next four guys after him (Treadwell, Doctson, Sheperd, Fuller) have all been meh at best. My favorite WR in that draft was Michael Thomas, but aside from tooting my own horn, bringing him up doesn't help because he didn't go until mid 2nd, clearly not an option mid 1st at the time.

I think, without these clear, immediate, AWFUL picks, we've been left with the instinct that the FO must be drafting bad players if the team is bad (because that's been true for FIFTEEN YEARS) and have to go digging. So since we can't really hate the picks that WERE made, we go hunting, and the easiest thing to criticize is the picks that WEREN'T made. Shoulda stayed and picked Wentz. Shoulda taken Watson (even though 95% of us would've been piiiiiiiissed at the time if they had). Shoulda signed a vet QB (even though I don't think any of us liked any of the ones that were on the market). Shoulda kept Pryor (even though he's flaming out something fierce in WAS). 

But I think that's a rough attitude. If we're putting ourselves in a great place year after year with trades (we got a 4th for a punter! we got it's looking like the #4 and #25 pick for the #12 pick! we got a starting CB for a 7th!) and in the draft (we've gotten GREAT return on our draft picks! You expect about 40-50% of your picks to stick, even as depth players and it looks like 2016/2017 is going to have a 60% or more rate) then we are in good shape. And yeah, there will always be better moves that COULD have been made. But instead of using hindsight to criticize them, I really think we should evaluate what they knew at the time and how they did based on that knowledge. And that changes our vantage point.

How did QB look coming into this year? Well, Kessler looked great in 2016, very good backup at worst. Suddenly he collapses during the preseason this year, I have no clue who to blame for that. We had Osweiler as the vet stop gap. He colapsed in the preseason. And we had Kizer, who was supposed to sit for a good chunk of the year. But Hue dumped that plan right out of the gate.

How did WR look? Not good, that's for sure, but NOTHING like it ended up. Britt was coming off a great year. And more importantly, he fit PERFECTLY the QB that Hue had said "trust me" about just 10 months earlier. Kessler was best at intermediate crossing routes in 2016, he was actually awesome on them. Britt did his most damage on, you guessed it, intermediate crossing routes. They signed a WR to match the stop gap QB they thought they'd be starting until they got their QBoTF in this draft (Kizer was always just a value pick, BPA). In addition, they had a healthy Coleman. So that's your big body crossing guy and your speed deep guy. And then in the slot, you have Duke Johnson (remember all the preseason talk of him playing slot WR more? Where did that go? Hue?)

So, in the end, I don't know how anybody can hate on the FO unless you thought the goal was competing this year. If the goal was rather to spend a couple years getting cap space and picks and young players with real potential, and then to turn it all into a competitor in 2018, then I think they look to be in a really good place to fulfill that.

[roger murdock]

33 minutes ago, CBrownsman said:

Here's the biggest thing...

If you draft a QB #1 overall and have a coach like Hue, you win 3-4 games...

If you draft a QB #1 overall and have a coach like BB you win 8-10 games...

I've watched Hue, his coaching decisions are terrible and he seems to throw at whatever personnel is on the field.  He isn't helping Kizer much, it doesn't seem like he will help Darnold/Rosen at all.  I cut our losses with him and give Dorsey the chance to find the guy he wants....

I agree. But I think Hue Jackson can be a playoff coach in another situation. I think Kizer as your starting QB would make the 85 Bears a 3 win bottom feeder. 

[CBrownsman]

11 minutes ago, roger murdock said:

I agree. But I think Hue Jackson can be a playoff coach in another situation. I think Kizer as your starting QB would make the 85 Bears a 3 win bottom feeder. 

Well start Kizer and have him throw 37 times a game you are absolutely right....

[Kathouse Sticks]

31 minutes ago, freakygeniuskid said:

So, here's my thing on the FO blaming. In the past, we've had absolute #$%^ show FO's, that we all (rightly) blamed for making terrible picks. Picks that we knew were terrible the moment they were made. Mohammed Massoqouia. David Veikune. Justin Gilbert. Johnny Manziel. Brandon Weeden. The list goes on and on.

But I think 15+ years of inept FO's has reprogrammed us to expect failure, and we're not sure to do when those bonehead picks aren't there. I mean, where are those picks with this regime? Coleman isn't great but he hasn't been atrocious and the next four guys after him (Treadwell, Doctson, Sheperd, Fuller) have all been meh at best. My favorite WR in that draft was Michael Thomas, but aside from tooting my own horn, bringing him up doesn't help because he didn't go until mid 2nd, clearly not an option mid 1st at the time.

I think, without these clear, immediate, AWFUL picks, we've been left with the instinct that the FO must be drafting bad players if the team is bad (because that's been true for FIFTEEN YEARS) and have to go digging. So since we can't really hate the picks that WERE made, we go hunting, and the easiest thing to criticize is the picks that WEREN'T made. Shoulda stayed and picked Wentz. Shoulda taken Watson (even though 95% of us would've been piiiiiiiissed at the time if they had). Shoulda signed a vet QB (even though I don't think any of us liked any of the ones that were on the market). Shoulda kept Pryor (even though he's flaming out something fierce in WAS). 

But I think that's a rough attitude. If we're putting ourselves in a great place year after year with trades (we got a 4th for a punter! we got it's looking like the #4 and #25 pick for the #12 pick! we got a starting CB for a 7th!) and in the draft (we've gotten GREAT return on our draft picks! You expect about 40-50% of your picks to stick, even as depth players and it looks like 2016/2017 is going to have a 60% or more rate) then we are in good shape. And yeah, there will always be better moves that COULD have been made. But instead of using hindsight to criticize them, I really think we should evaluate what they knew at the time and how they did based on that knowledge. And that changes our vantage point.

How did QB look coming into this year? Well, Kessler looked great in 2016, very good backup at worst. Suddenly he collapses during the preseason this year, I have no clue who to blame for that. We had Osweiler as the vet stop gap. He colapsed in the preseason. And we had Kizer, who was supposed to sit for a good chunk of the year. But Hue dumped that plan right out of the gate.

How did WR look? Not good, that's for sure, but NOTHING like it ended up. Britt was coming off a great year. And more importantly, he fit PERFECTLY the QB that Hue had said "trust me" about just 10 months earlier. Kessler was best at intermediate crossing routes in 2016, he was actually awesome on them. Britt did his most damage on, you guessed it, intermediate crossing routes. They signed a WR to match the stop gap QB they thought they'd be starting until they got their QBoTF in this draft (Kizer was always just a value pick, BPA). In addition, they had a healthy Coleman. So that's your big body crossing guy and your speed deep guy. And then in the slot, you have Duke Johnson (remember all the preseason talk of him playing slot WR more? Where did that go? Hue?)

So, in the end, I don't know how anybody can hate on the FO unless you thought the goal was competing this year. If the goal was rather to spend a couple years getting cap space and picks and young players with real potential, and then to turn it all into a competitor in 2018, then I think they look to be in a really good place to fulfill that.

I think the goal every year should be competing. If not, then they all need to get out of the business and we should all just get a self-absorbing hobby (magic and model railroading are two pretty good ones).  

I expected to see improvement this year. Is that not a reasonable expectation after going 1-15 and bringing in a new draft class? We have seen ZERO improvement.  That’s an attention getter, and I think it got Haslam’s attention. As for me watching us this year, I will quote Slick, the self-proclaimed Doctor of Style, “l don’t know whether to be impressed or depressed.”  I’ll go for the latter. 

Was I expecting a division title? No. But I was expecting to see us getting better as a team, with some wins thrown in, and we simply are not seeing that. I would challenge someone to offer proof of where this team has improved over last year. Now, if you say cutting Kenny Britt was addition by subtraction, I’d say that’s a good start, and it took a new GM to do it. 

Based on my own response here, change is needed!

[brownie man]

Kizer 37 throws

Crowell 5 rushes 72 yards 

 

something is wrong there 

[FGK]

26 minutes ago, Kathouse Sticks said:

I think the goal every year should be competing. If not, then they all need to get out of the business and we should all just get a self-absorbing hobby (magic and model railroading are two pretty good ones).  

This is just a silly expectation. With the roster we had in 2015 we should not have been expecting to compete in the near future. The GOAL being competing and EXPECTING to compete are two very different things, and your comments say "I expected to win" not "I hoped to win". Some teams should "expect" to win based on the talent, age, and experience of their rosters. We are not one of those teams.

26 minutes ago, Kathouse Sticks said:

I expected to see improvement this year. Is that not a reasonable expectation after going 1-15 and bringing in a new draft class? We have seen ZERO improvement.  That’s an attention getter, and I think it got Haslam’s attention. As for me watching us this year, I will quote Slick, the self-proclaimed Doctor of Style, “l don’t know whether to be impressed or depressed.”  I’ll go for the latter. 

You want wins, not improvement. Nobody can watch the defense this year and say we haven't improved. After YEARS of every team in the NFL running all over us, we have a very solid run defense. Our scheme is designed to give up intermediate pass plays and we still have a decent defense overall. Our O-line is one of the top 6-8 in the league.

My other issue here is where did you expect this improvement to come from? Rookies don't typically breed improvement in a team. There are outliers who do, but usually teams grow because of the growth of the players who are already there. Can the FO make the 2016 rookie class better? Can they help them develop and improve? No. That's the coaching staff's job. This wasn't a perfect roster at the start of the season. But if Hue doesn't ruin or run out every competent QB he has, it sure as heck isn't an 0-16 roster either.

We're having an issue with the general division of responsibilities here. I think the roster talent is the FO's job and using that talent and developing it is the coaching staff's job. In which case, I think any unbiased observer would have to say that we have a young, but very talented roster, that is performing like a young roster that doesn't know what a football is. I don't know how that's primarily a FO issue (even though, as I've said previously, they did make one big mistake, betting on Britt).

26 minutes ago, Kathouse Sticks said:

Was I expecting a division title? No. But I was expecting to see us getting better as a team, with some wins thrown in, and we simply are not seeing that. I would challenge someone to offer proof of where this team has improved over last year. Now, if you say cutting Kenny Britt was addition by subtraction, I’d say that’s a good start, and it took a new GM to do it.

There are so many ways that this team is better that if you can't see them I just don't know what to say. Have you seen this front 7? Have you seen this OL (even with a QB who holds the ball too long and plays designed to exacerbate that tendency)? This team has real talent. And a lot of that real talent has been acquired via trade/FA/draft in the last two years.

[big poppa pump]

Run D is the ONLY thing that has looked better on that side of the ball.

They get no pressure on the QB

They are 24th in sacks

They are 30th in pts per game

They are tied for 31 in takeaways

They are 15th in total yards

I believe they have given double digit TD's to TE's

They still seem to have difficulty getting off the field on 3rd down.

 

The D is definitely hung out to dry by the offensive ineptitude, but let's not act like we are sitting here with some solid D. 

[Kiwibrown]

9 minutes ago, big poppa pump said:

Run D is the ONLY thing that has looked better on that side of the ball.

They get no pressure on the QB

They are 24th in sacks

They are 30th in pts per game

They are tied for 31 in takeaways

They are 15th in total yards

I believe they have given double digit TD's to TE's

They still seem to have difficulty getting off the field on 3rd down.

 

The D is definitely hung out to dry by the offensive ineptitude, but let's not act like we are sitting here with some solid D. 

no growth only regression from the defense. 

9 yard cushion is now 10 yard cushion. 

[Thomas5737]

We're giving up a few less points per game compared to last year. We've already turned the ball over 11 more times than last year putting the defense in a tough spot. We've only got 11 takeaways which is bad but only 2 less than we had last year so we could eclipse that number too. The defense is a lot better overall this year. Not perfect, not a great scheme but definitely better.

Offense, yeah it took a step back. We're averaging 4.6 per rush which is 4th but last year we were 4.9 and 2nd. Last year we were tied for last in attempts, even though we were 2nd in ypa. Seems dumb, but a learning experience. This year we are 25th, so improvement. Of course if you take away Kizer's runs we are 45 fewer carries than the team with the fewest carries. We just refuse to run the football with our running backs. Last year our QBs had a 77.4 rating, 28th in the league. This year it is at 60.7, a very distant last.

Kizer is bad. Hue chooses to start Kizer. So a part of Kizer's blame goes to Hue.

There was no reason to keep McCown or RGIII (I notice only McCown is being mentioned, it's like only complaining about not drafting Watson and ignoring Trubisky). We weren't challenging for the playoffs this year anyway. Osweiler should have never been a real option just a good way to add to draft capital. Kessler proved he could be competent even if it hurt Hue's feelings when he was constantly stretching the field. Hue let his ego make that call and never gave Cody a chance to play with the 1s. He is a healthy inactive when our other QBs are healthy.  Sure he would look bad trying to what Kizer does, not that Kizer looks any better but if Hue would let Kessler do what Kessler does we would have had a much more enjoyable season and a lot less embarrassment. Again, that is on Hue.

70% Hue
20% Kizer
5% Sashi
5% uncontrollable circumstances

 

 

[Kathouse Sticks]

1 hour ago, freakygeniuskid said:

This is just a silly expectation. With the roster we had in 2015 we should not have been expecting to compete in the near future. The GOAL being competing and EXPECTING to compete are two very different things, and your comments say "I expected to win" not "I hoped to win". Some teams should "expect" to win based on the talent, age, and experience of their rosters. We are not one of those teams.

You want wins, not improvement. Nobody can watch the defense this year and say we haven't improved. After YEARS of every team in the NFL running all over us, we have a very solid run defense. Our scheme is designed to give up intermediate pass plays and we still have a decent defense overall. Our O-line is one of the top 6-8 in the league.

My other issue here is where did you expect this improvement to come from? Rookies don't typically breed improvement in a team. There are outliers who do, but usually teams grow because of the growth of the players who are already there. Can the FO make the 2016 rookie class better? Can they help them develop and improve? No. That's the coaching staff's job. This wasn't a perfect roster at the start of the season. But if Hue doesn't ruin or run out every competent QB he has, it sure as heck isn't an 0-16 roster either.

We're having an issue with the general division of responsibilities here. I think the roster talent is the FO's job and using that talent and developing it is the coaching staff's job. In which case, I think any unbiased observer would have to say that we have a young, but very talented roster, that is performing like a young roster that doesn't know what a football is. I don't know how that's primarily a FO issue (even though, as I've said previously, they did make one big mistake, betting on Britt).

There are so many ways that this team is better that if you can't see them I just don't know what to say. Have you seen this front 7? Have you seen this OL (even with a QB who holds the ball too long and plays designed to exacerbate that tendency)? This team has real talent. And a lot of that real talent has been acquired via trade/FA/draft in the last two years.

What I see is an 0-14 team. We are what our record says we are. Where is all of the front 7 pass pressure? No turnovers. Still giving up a lot of points (that’s a bad one due to the field position the offense and ST put them in), no sacks. I really thought with the hiring of Williams and Garrett, our defense would have shown marked improvement. It has not. 

Youre saying we have improved in so many ways. Yes, our Special Teams are league leading. Oh wait, they’re not. Our kicking game is second to none, oh wait...Our coaches have really improved. Oh, wait...  I wish what you are saying is true. Sack improvement.No. Creating turnovers?No. Fewer offensive turnovers?No. Great special teams? No. Offense that generates scores?No. 0-14 record?Yes. 

[Kathouse Sticks]

5 minutes ago, Kathouse Sticks said:

There are so many ways that this team is better that if you can't see them I just don't know what to say. Have you seen this front 7? Have you seen this OL (even with a QB who holds the ball too long and plays designed to exacerbate that tendency)? This team has real talent. And a lot of that real talent has been acquired via trade/FA/draft in the last two years.

You know, come to think of it, I did see our offensive line yesterday. In fact, I watched a Raven defensive lineman run right around Drango like he wasn’t even there and strip Kizer of the ball. Is that the kind of stuff I should be seeing, because I’m seeing way too much of it. I don’t recall that Fearsome Foursome front 7 of ours do any of that this year. I’ve obviously missed all of our good games. 

[FGK]

9 minutes ago, Kathouse Sticks said:

You know, come to think of it, I did see our offensive line yesterday. In fact, I watched a Raven defensive lineman run right around Drango like he wasn’t even there and strip Kizer of the ball. Is that the kind of stuff I should be seeing, because I’m seeing way too much of it. I don’t recall that Fearsome Foursome front 7 of ours do any of that this year. I’ve obviously missed all of our good games. 

Really. The backup LT to the best LT in football is your argument. Wrap it up boys. Joe Thomas's backup isn't as good as him. Clearly this means we have no talent on the team. Also like how you picked all of our worst stats (most influenced by rookie QB, no WR's, Defense being on the field 60% of every freaking game, and a weird as hell secondary scheme) instead of looking at the good ones.

You're just being willfully obtuse at this point and I'm done engaging. If you and your camp want to see us as being hopeless and without talent then be my guest.