🏈 Pick #13 is in! Raiders select TE, Brock Bowers, Georgia

[ronjon1990]

4 minutes ago, FloydFan said:

I don’t think anyone is acting like swifties over it. I think most are just happy with getting a blue chip player at 13. 

Naw, there's a pretty prevalent sentiment going on around here that one is simply not allowed to question or criticize the pick in any way, shape, or form while fans of it are justifying it with a bunch of nifty descriptors and zero actual substance being relayed as concrete fact of what's to come. 

When people are sitting here making assurances that he will be great- and make no mistake, some people are laying that assurance down- it comes across like Swifties.

The simple fact is Bowers, like anyone, could be a useless bust. He's not a blue chip prospect anymore, he's a rostered NFL 1st rounder. Now there are actual, tangible expectations beyond "feelings" that he'll be great. I think it's perfectly fair for Frankie to ask what people's expectations are, exactly, and I think it's telling that all of 1 or 2 people have actually given them beyond some simplistic platitudes, while simply saying that he's wrong. 

[FloydFan]

2 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Naw, there's a pretty prevalent sentiment going on around here that one is simply not allowed to question or criticize the pick in any way, shape, or form while fans of it are justifying it with a bunch of nifty descriptors and zero actual substance being relayed as concrete fact of what's to come. 

When people are sitting here making assurances that he will be great- and make no mistake, some people are laying that assurance down- it comes across like Swifties.

The simple fact is Bowers, like anyone, could be a useless bust. He's not a blue chip prospect anymore, he's a rostered NFL 1st rounder. Now there are actual, tangible expectations beyond "feelings" that he'll be great. I think it's perfectly fair for Frankie to ask what people's expectations are, exactly, and I think it's telling that all of 1 or 2 people have actually given them beyond some simplistic platitudes, while simply saying that he's wrong. 

I mean you can say that about any prospect, even one that would have been at an extreme position of need. There were probably only three or four blue chip prospects in this draft and we came away with one. Yeah once the season starts it’s time to produce, but that’s not really the point here to me. Bowers was one of by most accounts a top five player in this draft and what I’ve gathered is that most that are talking in his favor are happy to have a prospect of that level. 

[ronjon1990]

3 hours ago, FloydFan said:

I mean you can say that about any prospect, even one that would have been at an extreme position of need. There were probably only three or four blue chip prospects in this draft and we came away with one. Yeah once the season starts it’s time to produce, but that’s not really the point here to me. Bowers was one of by most accounts a top five player in this draft and what I’ve gathered is that most that are talking in his favor are happy to have a prospect of that level. 

I've gathered that most want to talk about how great he's going to be without specifying what "great" looks like, even to them subjectively. Nobody wants to put a label on it, just in case he winds up a lackluster utility piece or even a dud. 

It's not really about the talking in his favor, it's that many of those who are happen to be the same folks that go after criticism or skepticism like Nancy Reagan and crack. 

[NCOUGHMAN]

6 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

I've gathered that most want to talk about how great he's going to be without specifying what "great" looks like, even to them subjectively. Nobody wants to put a label on it, just in case he winds up a lackluster utility piece or even a dud. 

It's not really about the talking in his favor, it's that many of those who are happen to be the same folks that go after criticism or skepticism like Nancy Reagan and crack. 

This. Imo that’s why people quote analysts etc when talking about picks. So they can easily flip flop if the player/coach/gm doesn’t work out

[FloydFan]

9 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

I've gathered that most want to talk about how great he's going to be without specifying what "great" looks like, even to them subjectively. Nobody wants to put a label on it, just in case he winds up a lackluster utility piece or even a dud. 

It's not really about the talking in his favor, it's that many of those who are happen to be the same folks that go after criticism or skepticism like Nancy Reagan and crack. 

I think the issue there is that someone is asking for an arbitrary stat line for a rookie season when TEs in general have a tougher transition into the league. Of course we always have our militarily optimistic and pessimistic folks in here so I see what you’re saying. 

[101Raider]

I want to add my 2 cents here.

I absolutely love the Bowers pick, but personally would have drafted Fuaga. 

I think an arbitrary stat line is really hard to predict, especially year1.  However I absolutely see where Frankie and others are coming from. We spent significant capital on a position that we already spent up on last year. I think the expectation should be really high for him and anything less than quickly establishing himself as one of the greats would be a disappointment. 

Year 1 I’m willing to give him a little grace and am willing to ride the rough patches. However, year 2 my expectation is for him to be an elite producer at the position to justify this year’s draft capital.  
 

looking at Njoku’s and Kittle’s 2023 stats

Njoku: 81 rec for 882 and 6TDs

Kittle: 65 rec for 1020 and 6TDs

So my personal expectation for 2025 on is roughly 70 receptions, 950 yds and 6 TDs.

Probowls have become watered down, but I expect him to be right there in the discussion from year 2 on. Kelce and Andrews will continue being top dogs for as long as they’re playing. technically you could throw Njoku’s name here too, but I’m not a believer in him or Watson producing significantly. I expect the torch to be passed to Kincaid (I’m expecting him to be a monster for the Bills) and Bowers as the AFC elites. 
 

Bottom line is that if you use a high pick on a TE, then it should come come with significant expectations too IMHO. I happen to be a believer in Bowers’ talent and think he’ll produce for us.

 

 

[bucksavage1]

The last 4 surviving Teams in the NFL all had Pro bowl level TEs even though Bowers seems to be more than the traditional TE
 

I think one of the missing things from the offense last season was YAC. Bowers should be able to open the field up for the rest of the team

Edited May 6 by bucksavage1

[big_palooka]

On 5/5/2024 at 5:36 AM, ronjon1990 said:

I've gathered that most want to talk about how great he's going to be without specifying what "great" looks like, even to them subjectively. Nobody wants to put a label on it, just in case he winds up a lackluster utility piece or even a dud. 

It's not really about the talking in his favor, it's that many of those who are happen to be the same folks that go after criticism or skepticism like Nancy Reagan and crack. 

I've gathered that his detractors want simply want to use stats that way if he doesn't meet their expected stat line early, they can can say I told you so.

Why must you put a stat line on it as a rookie as to why the pick is or isn't a success? If we're in year 3 and he's not among the top TEs in the league, then the discussion deserves to be had. 

 

[Steins Gate]

Both Bowers and JPJ are perceived to have the coveted high floor / high ceiling combination. JPJ just happened to be at a position of need, while Bowers was not. For many in this forum (myself included), this is how we have wanted Raider drafts to be since forever. I am personally tired of reaches and project players being drafted in the higher rounds. Give us some guys who can come in and play right away at a good level.

The high floor perception generally comes from a player being good at the nuances of the position they play (pro ready). Bowers was rated very highly due to the many things he is good at (pro ready) and the good physical tools that generally translate to the high ceiling. When players have both high floor and high ceiling, the bust factor is usually minimal. Obviously, any player can bust. There are no sure things. But the odds of Bowers succeeding is greater than his bust factor.

[big_palooka]

9 hours ago, 101Raider said:

I want to add my 2 cents here.

I absolutely love the Bowers pick, but personally would have drafted Fuaga. 

I think an arbitrary stat line is really hard to predict, especially year1.  However I absolutely see where Frankie and others are coming from. We spent significant capital on a position that we already spent up on last year. I think the expectation should be really high for him and anything less than quickly establishing himself as one of the greats would be a disappointment. 

Year 1 I’m willing to give him a little grace and am willing to ride the rough patches. However, year 2 my expectation is for him to be an elite producer at the position to justify this year’s draft capital.  
 

looking at Njoku’s and Kittle’s 2023 stats

Njoku: 81 rec for 882 and 6TDs

Kittle: 65 rec for 1020 and 6TDs

So my personal expectation for 2025 on is roughly 70 receptions, 950 yds and 6 TDs.

Probowls have become watered down, but I expect him to be right there in the discussion from year 2 on. Kelce and Andrews will continue being top dogs for as long as they’re playing. technically you could throw Njoku’s name here too, but I’m not a believer in him or Watson producing significantly. I expect the torch to be passed to Kincaid (I’m expecting him to be a monster for the Bills) and Bowers as the AFC elites. 
 

Bottom line is that if you use a high pick on a TE, then it should come come with significant expectations too IMHO. I happen to be a believer in Bowers’ talent and think he’ll produce for us.

I have no issue with this, outside you have to factor in the QB situation when it comes to stats. 

Year 2, I would expect him to push for those kind of numbers as well. I would expect he's looked at as one of the top TEs in the game. 

I think it's ridiculous to expect Kelce type numbers to justify a draft pick as Frankie is doing. Bowers isn't playing with Mahomes and Andy Reid calling plays for one. 

I like Fuaga as well, not thinking Brock would ever be available that late. Getting JPJ round 2 makes the decision on Bowers that much better round 1.

[big_palooka]

On 5/4/2024 at 9:36 PM, ronjon1990 said:

I mean.....yes and no. 

Apply that same logic to everyone absolutely gushing over the Bowers pick, and it's equally as outrageous. 

Blue chip. Going to revolutionize the position. Best TE prospect in a generation+ so it's a fantastic pick. Stud. So on, so forth. 

For a franchise that hasn't paid a 2md contract to a 1st round player in over a decade, that's a whole bunch of outrageous hype, is it not? Or are we saying that Bowers will cut his teeth in Vegas before moving on to dominate elsewhere? 

Expecting HOF production is crazy. 

Gushing over the pick to the point of being the equivalent of Swifties is too. 

I haven't seen one person say he's going to "revolutionize the position", that's just hyperbole. I think it's an easy pick to like. Top 5 overall talent in the class, pushed down because of the QB position. 

I'm not into all the hyperbole. I've given my take as someone who's seen every game of his. Bowers a special talent, simple as that. There hasn't been a guy like him that I can recall. Ability to play outside, slot or inline. Can block, smart, instinctive route runner who can separate. Quick acceleration and top speed. Rare run after catch ability and hands that pluck the ball in various body positions. He looked like he could play in the NFL as a freshman.

I fully expect him to a 1000 yard receiver and TD maven given he can score from anywhere on the field. But I don't have unrealistic expectation year 1 between him transitioning to the NFL, Adams being the #1 target in the offense and the QB position in flux. 

[ronjon1990]

1 hour ago, big_palooka said:

I've gathered that his detractors want simply want to use stats that way if he doesn't meet their expected stat line early, they can can say I told you so.

Why must you put a stat line on it as a rookie as to why the pick is or isn't a success? If we're in year 3 and he's not among the top TEs in the league, then the discussion deserves to be had. 

 

And this, to me is where people are playing the ostrich head game.

On more than one occasion, Frankie asked about a 5 year average, not just a rookie stat line. And still, almost nobody had the chutzpah to wager a guess on it. 

"Special talent", "dominating the position",  "nobody else like him"....those are all hyperbole. They're fancy yet vague descriptors. 

I don't even find your take unfair- that his early stat line probably won't indicate much given the QB situation, pecking order, etc. I certainly find it more level than "needing Hall of Fame stats", as that's overkill. 

I simply notice that a lot of people are, again, outright castigating more pessimistic takes on him without actually using substance. 

Edited May 6 by ronjon1990

[Frankie2Gunz]

9 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

And this, to me is where people are playing the ostrich head game.

On more than one occasion, Frankie asked about a 5 year average, not just a rookie stat line. And still, almost nobody had the chutzpah to wager a guess on it. 

"Special talent", "dominating the position",  "nobody else like him"....those are all hyperbole. They're fancy yet vague descriptors. 

I don't even find your take unfair- that his early stat line probably won't indicate much given the QB situation, pecking order, etc. I certainly find it more level than "needing Hall of Fame stats", as that's overkill. 

I simply notice that a lot of people are, again, outright castigating more pessimistic takes on him without actually using substance. 

100 percent.  Everyone is throwing around, "special talent", "revolutionize the position", "dominator" and then I ask for what that looks like in terms of production on a five year average and everyone clams up.  

His career won't be judged by his rookie season but I will say he needs to produce amongst the top 3 TE's in the NFL within the first three years of his career.  The biggest issue I have is that it was a luxury pick when we already have a 22 year old second rounder on the roster that we traded up for last year.  It's fair to assume if Mayer were the full time starter he would put up average numbers, somewhere around 600 and 4.  With all of that being said, Bowers would have to produce at a superstar type level for the pick to be justified and to pose good value. That really isn’t a hard concept to grasp… 

Edited May 6 by Frankie2Gunz

[RaidersAreOne]

I'm deciding between a Bowers or Crosby jersey...

.... but the curse is real. Maybe best I don't.

[ronjon1990]

40 minutes ago, RaidersAreOne said:

I'm deciding between a Bowers or Crosby jersey...

.... but the curse is real. Maybe best I don't.

I stick to legends jerseys myself. Woodson is my go-to. 

Got a Romanowski jersey too. Have a Brown. Even got a custom Fargas one made when Huggy Bear was around. 

Hard to go wrong with those. 

That said, I did make an Dallin Leavitt jersey once, but the curse didn't work.....or did it?