Official 2025 DL & EDGE Thread

[goldfishwars]

Shaping up to be one of the best classes in years

Edge:

James Pearce - Tennessee

• 21.3% pressure rate in 2023
• Freakish athleticism
• Long and lean with blistering first step
• Converts speed to power
• Flexible, can bend the edge
• Adequate a run defender, lacks weight

Mykel Williams - Georgia

• Wins with power and length
• Violent hands
• Excellent run defender
• Explosive twitch
• Not and edge bender

Abdul Carter - Penn State

• Linebacker convert who was an excellent blitzer at previous position
• Shades of Micah Parsons, freakish strength at point of attack
• Incredibly bends and flexible 
• Double-digit sack potential in NFL
• Lacks size to anchor down 

Nic Scourton - Texas A & M

• Thick, powerful lower body 
• Strength huge positive in run game, knock-back power
• Deadly spin move as a rusher
• High effort defender, plays with urgency
• Transfer from Purdue - will be tested against better opposition in SEC

Jack Sawyer - Ohio State

• Ideal size and length at 6'5 and 260
• Can collapse the pocket with bull rush
• Back of tricks, nasty chop block
• High-effort, will hoover clean-up sacks
• Lacks elite get-off
• Some stiffness in lower-half

Patrick Payton - Florida State

• Long and twitchy frame
• Speed to power
• Strong tackler, good against the run
• Agile and flexible as a rusher
• Below average strength

J.T. Tuimoloau - Ohio State

• Prototypical even-front edge
• Former consensus 5 star recruit 
• Power rush is his calling card, very strong run defender
• Average athleticism and explosive traits

IDL:

Deone Walker - Kentucky

• Rare length and size combo at 6'6 and 345 pounds
• Genuine pass-rush gifts as an interior rusher - 7.5 sacks in SEC
• Quick hands, an array of moves in tool-kit
• Power to take absorb double-teams
• Needs to lower pad-level to continue as producer

Mason Graham - Michigan

• Elite hand fighter - wins one on ones for fun
• Wide base, can anchor down as a run defender
• High motor, always ticking - will get second shots to penetrate as a result
• Evident wrestling background
• High-floor, no obvious weaknesses 

 

Others to watch:

Tyleik Williams - Ohio State

Kenneth Grant - Michigan

Landon Jackson - Arkansas

Dontay Corleone - Cincinnati 

Nazir Stackhouse - Georgia

[MagicMT]

Wouldn't be surprised if Graham, Walker and Pearce ends up being picked in the top 5 next year. 
This will be a dominant DL class in 2025 

[Armbar]

19 hours ago, goldfishwars said:

Kenneth Grant - Michigan

I think this cat is as good as anyone.

I thought the 2024 class was absolutely dreadful. 2025, especially defensively, is 100x better. There are like 8 defensive players in this draft—at least—that I will have ahead of the top D player from 2024.

Not impressed with the linebackers again, but I’m very early in the process. 

[Armbar]

12 hours ago, MagicMT said:

Wouldn't be surprised if Graham, Walker and Pearce ends up being picked in the top 5 next year. 
This will be a dominant DL class in 2025 

This DL class is > the 2024 WR class. 

[Ozzy]

1 hour ago, Armbar said:

I think this cat is as good as anyone.

I thought the 2024 class was absolutely dreadful. 2025, especially defensively, is 100x better. There are like 8 defensive players in this draft—at least—that I will have ahead of the top D player from 2024.

Not impressed with the linebackers again, but I’m very early in the process. 

Ok for one the 2024 class of defensive players is not that bad.  Yes a defensive player was not taken for a long time in the 1st round but that is mostly because of the QB class, the WR class and that great OT class which are all better than the 2025 class at every spot basically.  That OT class for 2024 was elite with tons of high level players, that could be the case next year but not the same number of great talents no way.  

 

These guys at CB could all be very good players in the NFL and guys like Mitchell and DeJean could be total super stars on the Eagles same with Arnold on Detroit.  The depth at CB is better in 2024 than 2025 even though Will Johnson could potentially be better than any of these guys, still that depth is rock solid.  The 2025 depth could be good also but Dotson, Muhammad, Burke and Cypress would all have to take a major jump in play.

Terrion Arnold Alabama RS SOPH
Quinyon Mitchell Toledo
Cooper DeJean Iowa JR
Kool-Aid McKinstry Alabama JR
Nate Wiggins Clemson JR
Mike Sainristil Michigan
Kamari Lassiter Georgia JR
Max Melton Rutgers RS JR

 

Then at safety these guys could all be very solid pros, Nubin should start instantly same with Bullard who is super versatile and Kinchens could be great on the Rams.  Sure Starks in 2025 could be drafted higher than these guys but time will tell, Bullard is super versatile in coverage and not sure Starks has his foot speed.

Javon Bullard Georgia
Tyler Nubin Minnesota
Kamren Kinchens Miami FL JR
Cole Bishop Utah JR
Tykee Smith Georgia RS

 

 

Unless Carter, Payton, Pearce and Jackson really take it to another level as edge rushers, not sure as a group they are better than Latu, Turner, Verse and Robinson.  Really depends on how Scourton, Mykel Williams, Tuimoloau and Dennis-Sutton play and or develop.  2025 does have more pure DE depth sure.  In terms of pure OLBs in a 4/3 defense yes 2025 is clearly better with possibly Abdul Carter if he is moved back there or Barrett Carter and Nick Jackson.

 

ILB could be better in 2025 with Lawson and Higgins but 2024 is not bad and Jeremiah Trotter Jr could be amazing on the Eagles despite falling in the draft and Colson should be a stud on the Chargers along with Cooper on the Packers.  Not to mention Wilson on the Steelers who could be very promising.  Not sure the 2025 class has the quality ILB depth 2024 had but sure not many were taken highly in the draft, still does not mean they cannot play.

 

The only clear two defensive spots that is better is sure off the ball OLB in 2025 potentially and of course DT which is better on the high end.  But the DT 2024 class is not that bad, a lot of those guys could be very solid pros and despite falling in the draft a bit guys like Fiske, Jenkins and Hall could be really solid.  But sure at this point projection wise a lot of DTs will go high in 2025 but most of that is thanks to Walker, Graham, Grant and Tyliek Wililams.  You take those guys out and things change quickly.

Jer'Zhan Newton Illinois RS JR
Byron Murphy II Texas
Mekhi Wingo LSU JR
T'Vondre Sweat Texas RS
Braden Fiske Florida State RS
Kris Jenkins Michigan
Michael Hall Jr Ohio State RS SOPH
Maason Smith LSU RS SOPH
Brandon Dorlus Oregon RS
Ruke Orhorhoro Clemson

 

 

Either way the talk of the 2024 draft of defensive players is just awful is total nonsense and not true.  

 

[Armbar]

40 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Terrion Arnold Alabama RS SOPH

Sure. He’s solid, but I don’t think he’s gonna be a #1. 

40 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Quinyon Mitchell Toledo

Good. I like him. 

40 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Cooper DeJean Iowa JR

My top defensive player. But not at CB—I see him as a big nickel/STAR. Which is fine.

40 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Kool-Aid McKinstry Alabama JR

Meh. Lacks athleticism to get me excited about him. I think bust. 

40 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Nate Wiggins Clemson JR

I see the physical gifts, but he’s simply not very good. And rail thin. 

40 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Mike Sainristil Michigan

Like him. Fast and quick. Sticky. 

40 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Kamari Lassiter Georgia JR

Not a fan. Poor athlete all-around. 

40 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Max Melton Rutgers RS JR

Love him. Arguably my favorite player in the class. I think he’s got CB1 ability. 

40 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Javon Bullard Georgia

Don’t think he’s very good. Average all-around traits. 

40 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Tyler Nubin Minnesota

Ironically reminds me of the guy he’s replacing in New York (McKinney). Solid player. 

40 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Kamren Kinchens Miami FL JR

Love his instincts, but his athleticism is below middling unfortunately. 

40 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Cole Bishop Utah JR

Grew on me. Became my FS1 this year. Does everything at a good level & is a plus athlete. 

40 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Tykee Smith Georgia RS

Not impressed. He’s a good football player, but not physically good enough to make the same impact in the NFL. Man without a real position at his size-speed. 

40 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Jer'Zhan Newton Illinois RS JR

Byron Murphy II Texas
Mekhi Wingo LSU JR
T'Vondre Sweat Texas RS
Braden Fiske Florida State RS
Kris Jenkins Michigan
Michael Hall Jr Ohio State RS SOPH
Maason Smith LSU RS SOPH
Brandon Dorlus Oregon RS
Ruke Orhorhoro Clemson

I liked the interior depth this past year. Love Newton, Fiske, Sweat, Dorlus, and Jenkins. Like Murphy. Hall and Orhorhoro have a chance. Bleh on Wingo/Smith. 
 

40 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Either way the talk of the 2024 draft of defensive players is just awful is total nonsense and not true. 

Disagree. It was historically bad at LB. Bad at EDGE. Solid at DT. Below average at CB and S.

[Ozzy]

13 minutes ago, Armbar said:

 

Disagree. It was historically bad at LB. Bad at EDGE. Solid at DT. Below average at CB and S.

Historically bad at LB?  You do know that in 2023 the only real productive drafted LB that is not an edge player in a 3/4 was Henry To'oTo'o.  The only other guys who were productive in that class last year were Ivan Pace Jr an UDFA.  Bad Edge group?  Again not sure unless they take big steps this year that the edge group top four is better than this past year.  Doubt anyone will be as productive and versatile in his pass rush that Latu is and not sure anyone is as good of an athlete than Turner is and honestly no one is big and strong like Verse and can bull rush like he can.

 

Just seems silly, because guys dropped in the draft because of a loaded OT, WR and QB group now all of a sudden these guys cannot play defense?

 

 

[Armbar]

10 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Historically bad at LB?

Yes. 

10 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

You do know that in 2023 the only real productive drafted LB that is not an edge player in a 3/4 was Henry To'oTo'o.

Can we give guys more than 1 year before we lock them in as failures, or no? Also, this is revisionist. I'm talking about prospects, in which, I had several "solid" grades on LB's in 2023.

Jack Campbell (1st)
Noah Sewell (4th)
Owen Pappoe (3rd)
Nolan Smith (Not a full-time edge IMO) (1st)
Drew Sanders (3rd)
Daiyan Henley (3rd)
Trenton Simpson (3rd)
Demarvion Overshown (2nd)
Nick Herbig (viewed him as a potential ILB) (4th)
Nick Hampton (Not a full-time edge IMO) (5th)
Amari Burney (5th)
Jalen Graham (5th)
Henry To'o-To'o (5th)
Ivan Pace (He was part of the 2023 class, whether he was drafted or not) (4th)

That is a much stronger group of quality players than what I had for 2024:

Payton Wilson (2nd)
Edgerrin Cooper (2nd)
Junior Colson (2nd)
Cedric Gray (2nd)
Edefuan Ulofoshio (5th)
Trevin Wallace (6th)

10 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Bad Edge group?

Zero depth at edge this year. It was a 3-person class (Verse/Latu/Turner) and saying Turner is "good" is a bit of a stretch to me. He's a project.

10 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Again not sure unless they take big steps this year that the edge group top four is better than this past year.

If James Pearce was eligible last year, he'd have been the 1st defensive player taken and I'm willing to bet my house he would've gone top 10.

10 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Doubt anyone will be as productive and versatile in his pass rush that Latu is

Maybe not. Latu was very productive, but doesn't have a truly elite move. His best skill is his ability to switch his moves up which is valuable, but I don't see him just overwhelming OT's with speed or power, which is what the majority of the top guys in the NFL are able to do. Give me Pearce over him all day.

10 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

and not sure anyone is as good of an athlete than Turner is

James Pearce is a comparable athlete IMO. And definitely a better pass rusher right now. I don't really care how athletic a guy is if they struggle to get consistent pressure.

10 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

and honestly no one is big and strong like Verse and can bull rush like he can.

Just off the top of my head, J.T. Tuimoloau is right there for me. To be fair, I did have Verse rated higher than him (slightly) in my final rankings before Tuimoloau returned. And I haven't watched Mykel Williams nearly enough yet to formulate my own opinion, but apparently he's got freakish bull rush power. 

10 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Just seems silly, because guys dropped in the draft because of a loaded OT, WR and QB group now all of a sudden these guys cannot play defense?

I was of the opinion this draft was bad long before they slid in the draft.

 

 

Again, just my opinions, but I feel like 2024 was butt defensively...and pretty much everywhere aside from QB at the top, WR, OT, and DT.

[Ozzy]

1 hour ago, Armbar said:

Yes. 

Can we give guys more than 1 year before we lock them in as failures, or no? Also, this is revisionist. I'm talking about prospects, in which, I had several "solid" grades on LB's in 2023.

Jack Campbell (1st)
Noah Sewell (4th)
Owen Pappoe (3rd)
Nolan Smith (Not a full-time edge IMO) (1st)
Drew Sanders (3rd)
Daiyan Henley (3rd)
Trenton Simpson (3rd)
Demarvion Overshown (2nd)
Nick Herbig (viewed him as a potential ILB) (4th)
Nick Hampton (Not a full-time edge IMO) (5th)
Amari Burney (5th)
Jalen Graham (5th)
Henry To'o-To'o (5th)
Ivan Pace (He was part of the 2023 class, whether he was drafted or not) (4th)

That is a much stronger group of quality players than what I had for 2024:

Payton Wilson (2nd)
Edgerrin Cooper (2nd)
Junior Colson (2nd)
Cedric Gray (2nd)
Edefuan Ulofoshio (5th)
Trevin Wallace (6th)

Zero depth at edge this year. It was a 3-person class (Verse/Latu/Turner) and saying Turner is "good" is a bit of a stretch to me. He's a project.

If James Pearce was eligible last year, he'd have been the 1st defensive player taken and I'm willing to bet my house he would've gone top 10.

Maybe not. Latu was very productive, but doesn't have a truly elite move. His best skill is his ability to switch his moves up which is valuable, but I don't see him just overwhelming OT's with speed or power, which is what the majority of the top guys in the NFL are able to do. Give me Pearce over him all day.

James Pearce is a comparable athlete IMO. And definitely a better pass rusher right now. I don't really care how athletic a guy is if they struggle to get consistent pressure.

Just off the top of my head, J.T. Tuimoloau is right there for me. To be fair, I did have Verse rated higher than him (slightly) in my final rankings before Tuimoloau returned. And I haven't watched Mykel Williams nearly enough yet to formulate my own opinion, but apparently he's got freakish bull rush power. 

I was of the opinion this draft was bad long before they slid in the draft.

 

 

Again, just my opinions, but I feel like 2024 was butt defensively...and pretty much everywhere aside from QB at the top, WR, OT, and DT.

So JD Bertrand, Nathaniel Watson, Tommy Eichenberg, Jaylan Ford and Marist Liufau are not quality players at the LB spot and were not even worth drafting?  Watson was amazing at times on Miss State and Bertrand could be a really solid pro.  As for 'round grades', that is great but really it all depends on the depth of the group, just because a guy falls to the 2nd when he should have been a 1st rounder does that mean he has a 2nd round grade?  There can be multiple 1st round grades but only a certain number get selected there.  And really it is all about depth at the position in general and team needs of course, that can make guys fall or rise.

 

Granted Jack Campbell I should have included him on that list of productive LBs last year, but still it is a sad group but sure it is only one year.  Herbig I would not include because he is a 3/4 OLB in my book.

 

Is funny to say James Pearce is this amazing player when few even knew the guy before last year and Dallas Turner is some dud or something.  Turner was elite as a true freshman on Alabama, James Pearce had one good year last year being his true sophomore year and that disregards Turner having three solid seasons on an elite program like Bama?  Sure maybe Turner will not be a good pro by my bet is he does great in that Flores system because he is so versatile as an athlete and does quite well.

Pearce a lot of that is projection, odd to call him this finished product after one good year and Dallas Turner is a project after three strong years at a top flight program.  Pearce was not known especially at the start of last year, teams did not prepare for him, now they will every team he faces.  We will see how he looks this year but he is far from being absolutely complete and Turner is this work in progress.  

 

Still saying the 2025 defensive class is "100x" better is totally absurd.  The only way the is true is if basically all the defenders in that 2024 class never play and no one is productive and obviously that will not happen.  It is not like the Vikings defensive draft picks in 2022 where they selected Lewis Cine, Andrew booth and Brian Asamoah and basically none of them play any legit snaps and have produced much of anything at all in the last two years.  That is a historically bad defensive draft group all selected by the same team all within the first three  rounds.  That is what you call historically bad because it just straight up is to this point and most likely two of those guys will be cut before the start of the season unless someone greatly improves.  

 

 

[Scoundrel]

19 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Pearce a lot of that is projection, odd to call him this finished product

A lot of scouting is projection… and he didn’t call him a finished product

[EagleBlueDon]

Perfect and just in time for the Eagles to need another EDGE/DE.

[Armbar]

@Ozzy agree to disagree. We won't know the real answer to who is right for another 2-3 years. No point in arguing our "hunches" when there is very little evidence to prove either one of us right/wrong yet. Just sharing my opinion.

[Ozzy]

8 hours ago, Scoundrel said:

A lot of scouting is projection… and he didn’t call him a finished product

True but to call Dallas Turner, a proven three year player who played a ton as a true freshman on one of the best college football programs in the country, not even "good" and to consider him a project...

 

Yet call James Pearce Jr a guy who has only been productive for one season after not doing much of anything as a true freshman, and to not consider him a project and say if he was eligible last year he would have been a top 10 pick right now and the first defensive player drafted... betting your house on this projection....

 

Yeah that is a bit more than a projection, and does seem odd because again he says he is that good right now despite only really being good for one season and not fully being proven as a player in my opinion.  Sure maybe he will become that good but I would not call him that elite after one year especially with that kind of build.    

 

58 minutes ago, Armbar said:

@Ozzy agree to disagree. We won't know the real answer to who is right for another 2-3 years. No point in arguing our "hunches" when there is very little evidence to prove either one of us right/wrong yet. Just sharing my opinion.

You clearly love James Pearce Jr, that is great but like I have said before grand scheme of things he is not that special of a DE compared to many great ones before him.  I seriously doubt he can easily put on that much weight to become 265-270 like you say.   Also how you do not consider weight for him an issue but Patrick Payton it is, and I would say Payton is a more impressive athlete than Pearce but needs to get stronger as does Pearce.  

Sure Pearce was good last year but again no one knew of him no one really game planned for him like they will now.  Just look at Will Anderson Jr and his dip in production after his monster season the year before at Bama.  Pearce could get similar treatment especially on a D that is not super stacked with other great players.  Chances are things could be a lot harder for him this up coming season.  Turner even had to deal with that for Bama after Anderson was drafted, being the man and everyone knows it, that is an entirely different level that Pearce has never experienced yet.  

[Ragnarok]

1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

True but to call Dallas Turner, a proven three year player who played a ton as a true freshman on one of the best college football programs in the country, not even "good" and to consider him a project...

 

Yet call James Pearce Jr a guy who has only been productive for one season after not doing much of anything as a true freshman, and to not consider him a project and say if he was eligible last year he would have been a top 10 pick right now and the first defensive player drafted... betting your house on this projection....

 

Yeah that is a bit more than a projection, and does seem odd because again he says he is that good right now despite only really being good for one season and not fully being proven as a player in my opinion.  Sure maybe he will become that good but I would not call him that elite after one year especially with that kind of build.    

 

You clearly love James Pearce Jr, that is great but like I have said before grand scheme of things he is not that special of a DE compared to many great ones before him.  I seriously doubt he can easily put on that much weight to become 265-270 like you say.   Also how you do not consider weight for him an issue but Patrick Payton it is, and I would say Payton is a more impressive athlete than Pearce but needs to get stronger as does Pearce.  

Sure Pearce was good last year but again no one knew of him no one really game planned for him like they will now.  Just look at Will Anderson Jr and his dip in production after his monster season the year before at Bama.  Pearce could get similar treatment especially on a D that is not super stacked with other great players.  Chances are things could be a lot harder for him this up coming season.  Turner even had to deal with that for Bama after Anderson was drafted, being the man and everyone knows it, that is an entirely different level that Pearce has never experienced yet.  

Agree that both Pearce and Payton need to add some weight and strength this year.

I think Pearce is the better athlete, he's definitely quicker off the snap and more explosive.  Both are very bendy and fluid though.

As a Vols fan, teams definitely planned for Pearce.  He was our best pass rusher unlike Payton who had Verse getting a ton of attention.

Be fun to see how each does this year.

[Ozzy]

2 minutes ago, Ragnarok said:

Agree that both Pearce and Payton need to add some weight and strength this year.

I think Pearce is the better athlete, he's definitely quicker off the snap and more explosive.  Both are very bendy and fluid though.

As a Vols fan, teams definitely planned for Pearce.  He was our best pass rusher unlike Payton who had Verse getting a ton of attention.

Be fun to see how each does this year.

True but honestly preseason and early last year I bet teams planned for Baron more than Pearce.  But sure after the first four weeks or so teams knew who he was but it is to an entirely different level now, especially if some believe he is the #1 pick overall.  Honestly for that to happen he has to what, get 15+ sacks and 20+ TFLs?  That is not that simple to do.  Not to mention honestly that entire Tennessee defense no one else is like, wow watch out for that guy.  Maybe Omari Thomas will be a late round pick or UDFA but even he is not super hard to deal with, but sure some guys might emerge as stars possibly.  But teams will all be completely focused on Pearce every single game untill that happens and even if that happens they will still focus on Pearce Jr as the #1 threat.  

 

Payton no question was helped with Verse opposite him, but then again no one is calling Payton the #1 overall pick right now either.  And honestly it is rare air to be the #1 overall pick as an edge rusher.  Myles Garrett, Clowney, Mario Williams.  Like I have said before no way is Pearce as good as those dudes.  Travon Walker sure but he was more drafted because of his freak athletic ability and upside at 6-5 270 and not sure Pearce will ever weigh 270 and keep that speed and quickness.  And Walker was in a draft with no elite QBs or super elite OTs.  

Will be interesting how he does but totally blowing up statistically not sure that will happen.  Time will tell.  Payton with his 9 passes deflected last year is super elite and almost more impressive than someone getting 10 sacks honestly, that is hard to do from a DE spot but sure he dropped in coverage at times also.