TheKillerNacho Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 58 minutes ago, Soko said: Waddle under 100 yards (2023): 7-4 Hill under 100 yards (2023): 2-4 Waddle under 100 (2022): 6-5 Hill under 100 (2022): 6-4 Combined 13-9 for Waddle, 8-8 for Hill. that's fairly close. if you include games over 100 that ended up being losses (particularly in 2022), it will even out. Or if you base it off being above/bleow their average Y/G rather than 100. to say nothing of how two of our losses were games that Waddle was injured. Hill benefits from Waddle, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKillerNacho Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 54 minutes ago, Soko said: In the same way Michael Pittman is a WR1. Waddle’s an elite complementary piece more so than he is an engine of an offense, IMO. I don’t see how recent history disagrees with that. No, he hasn’t had the opportunity (really) to prove that yet, but paying him as if he already has while also having Hill on the books for $100M+ these next three years, isn’t a risk I’d want to take. Waddle is way more talented than Pittman and been more productive, dude. lol Quote He was also force fed and the offense sucked. not sure what your point really is? his level of targets was not really greater than other "WR1s". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 1 hour ago, TheKillerNacho said: that's fairly close. if you include games over 100 that ended up being losses (particularly in 2022), it will even out. Or if you base it off being above/bleow their average Y/G rather than 100. to say nothing of how two of our losses were games that Waddle was injured. Hill benefits from Waddle, too. Hill’s production is still more correlative with winning than Waddle’s. Using averages doesn’t make sense when one player is significantly more productive than the other. If Hill gets 95 yards and Waddle gets 75, then that counts as Waddle impacting the game more because he was above average? Why is 2022 a better indication for their current standings than 2023? 1 hour ago, TheKillerNacho said: Waddle is way more talented than Pittman and been more productive, dude. lol Forest for the trees. Point is, being at the top of the depth chart only makes you a legitimate #1 WR in the literal sense. Kendrick Bourne is a #1 WR. Are you the engine of your passing game? Waddle hasn’t shown to be. 1 hour ago, TheKillerNacho said: not sure what your point really is? his level of targets was not really greater than other "WR1s". You brought up Waddle’s rookie season as proof that he can be a capable WR1. I’m responding that it really isn’t, as a legit WR1. Since 2021, only four players had 140 targets and were less productive than Waddle (one was a tight end, Evan Engram). The others were Diontae Johnson, Michael Pittman, and Marquise Brown - basically, all guys you’re not all that ecstatic about having as the #1 pass catcher in your offense. 2011 Waddle 11th in targets, 8th in catches, 25th in yards, and 129th in ADOT. Obviously Waddle was a rookie and the offense has been overhauled, so I’m not downplaying that year. It was a good rookie season. Just not what I would call evidence of being a capable WR1, unless again, you’re just talking literally about the top receiver on a depth chart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phinsesq Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 As a Miami fan, I am happy with it. Hills massive cap hit next year can be dealt with by adding a voidable year and conversion into signing bonus if all else fails. I suspect a deal with Tua will be worked out as well once the relief from the post June 1st cuts hit and if not, there is this year and perhaps next year tagged or let him test the market similar to Lamar on a restricted tag if need be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabbs4u Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 (edited) 7 hours ago, sparky151 said: He's under contract for 2 more years at a combined 28 mil or so. Let's say his fair market value is 33 mil per year. He'd be worth more than the tag numbers too. The Bengals don't need to use the tag on another player so he'd be the priority. The team has the leverage here and Mike Brown knows how to use it. The team would be happy to sign him to an extension if he takes the reality of the situation into account. If not, they'll get the best 7 years of his career from him and move on It's cute you actually believe alienating Chase and going the Kirk Cousins route with Tags is the better option then treating the best player on the team like the Top 5 WR he is? Giving him an "extension" instead of criminally under paying him, because we can. 👌 That is the Bengals approach though. The Browns family's way, so I agree. I'd love to watch that, truly. Ja'Marr would make Trent Williams and Jalen Ramsey's (Washington and Jacksonville) contract negotiations look like child's play. The amount of phantom injury excuses that would come, preventing him from practicing and playing but still getting paid while costing the Bengals potential Wins would be absolutely hilarious. Please take that approach so I can watch that soap opera unfold. 🙏 Edited June 1 by Nabbs4u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKillerNacho Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 Quote Hill’s production is still more correlative with winning than Waddle’s. Using averages doesn’t make sense when one player is significantly more productive than the other. If Hill gets 95 yards and Waddle gets 75, then that counts as Waddle impacting the game more because he was above average? The point is both players have a strong trend of having far better performances in wins than losses, because the thing that is actually correlated with Miami winning is passing the football effectively. 2 hours ago, Soko said: Why is 2022 a better indication for their current standings than 2023? I mean... he did miss three games last year & was nursing injuries for a handful of others. They were both healthy in 2022, for comparison (although having to deal with backup QBs). Regardless, I was saying 2022 should be considered along with 2023, not instead of. Quote being at the top of the depth chart only makes you a legitimate #1 WR in the literal sense I agree completely. I have little desire to continue this rather-circular argument though so I'll leave it at that we'll see how he performs during the scope of the contract. But for now, I'm extremely pleased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 6 hours ago, Nabbs4u said: It's cute you actually believe alienating Chase and going the Kirk Cousins route with Tags is the better option then treating the best player on the team like the Top 5 WR he is? Giving him an "extension" instead of criminally under paying him, because we can. 👌 That is the Bengals approach though. The Browns family's way, so I agree. I'd love to watch that, truly. Ja'Marr would make Trent Williams and Jalen Ramsey's (Washington and Jacksonville) contract negotiations look like child's play. The amount of phantom injury excuses that would come, preventing him from practicing and playing but still getting paid while costing the Bengals potential Wins would be absolutely hilarious. Please take that approach so I can watch that soap opera unfold. 🙏 It's really not all that complicated with JaMarr Chase, he's an Elite player that you drafted, and paying him now will cost you less in the long run while also not pissing him off. Trying to penny pinch by tagging him for consecutive seasons is a loser mentality. I can understand wanting to tag Tee Higgins for one season, hell maybe even a tag and trade after this year (as much as I hate that on principal) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 5 hours ago, TheKillerNacho said: The point is both players have a strong trend of having far better performances in wins than losses, because the thing that is actually correlated with Miami winning is passing the football effectively. I mean... he did miss three games last year & was nursing injuries for a handful of others. They were both healthy in 2022, for comparison (although having to deal with backup QBs). Regardless, I was saying 2022 should be considered along with 2023, not instead of. I agree completely. I have little desire to continue this rather-circular argument though so I'll leave it at that we'll see how he performs during the scope of the contract. But for now, I'm extremely pleased. There aren't many TRUE #1's in this league Jefferson Hill Chase Lamb AJ Brown Amon Ra A lot of other guys that can be a #1 if necessary, but are better as top tier #2s DeVonta Smith Tee Higgins Jaylen Waddle Brandon Aiyuk DJ Moore DK Metcalf (to name a few, this is a long list) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky151 Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 On 5/31/2024 at 12:46 PM, Soko said: Higgins has already been vocal about requesting a trade, and outing the team as putting virtually zero effort into re-signing him (surprise surprise, Cincy ownership). If you think Higgins is going to be tagged again in 2025, and then a third time in 2026 without any issues? I’ve got a bridge to sell you. I’m not paying Higgins this amount, he’s not worth that IMO. What the Bengals’ plan is remains irrelevant, just saying I wouldn’t want my favorite team giving Higgins a $28.5M AAV. Higgins knows he isn't getting traded before the 2024 season. He may be traded next offseason if he's tagged again and the Bengals have a replacement for him inhouse. And no player ever gets tagged 3 times as it would require using the QB franchise value rather than the positional tag for a WR. On 5/31/2024 at 4:33 PM, Nabbs4u said: It's cute you actually believe alienating Chase and going the Kirk Cousins route with Tags is the better option then treating the best player on the team like the Top 5 WR he is? Giving him an "extension" instead of criminally under paying him, because we can. 👌 That is the Bengals approach though. The Browns family's way, so I agree. I'd love to watch that, truly. Ja'Marr would make Trent Williams and Jalen Ramsey's (Washington and Jacksonville) contract negotiations look like child's play. The amount of phantom injury excuses that would come, preventing him from practicing and playing but still getting paid while costing the Bengals potential Wins would be absolutely hilarious. Please take that approach so I can watch that soap opera unfold. 🙏 Er, I'm not recommending the team put Chase on a year to year deal. But it's an option that would save the team lots of money, maybe 70 mil or so over the next 4 years. Spending that money at other positions is something they may well consider. And Burrow is the best player on the team. On 5/31/2024 at 10:37 PM, Danger said: It's really not all that complicated with JaMarr Chase, he's an Elite player that you drafted, and paying him now will cost you less in the long run while also not pissing him off. Trying to penny pinch by tagging him for consecutive seasons is a loser mentality. I can understand wanting to tag Tee Higgins for one season, hell maybe even a tag and trade after this year (as much as I hate that on principal) Agreed you need volunteers not hostages in Tomlin's phrase. But Jefferson got 110 mil guaranteed and the Bengals are unlikely to approach that number. The Bengals maintain good cap health by not mortgaging the future with long term guarantees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 2 minutes ago, sparky151 said: Higgins knows he isn't getting traded before the 2024 season. He may be traded next offseason if he's tagged again and the Bengals have a replacement for him inhouse. And no player ever gets tagged 3 times as it would require using the QB franchise value rather than the positional tag for a WR. Er, I'm not recommending the team put Chase on a year to year deal. But it's an option that would save the team lots of money, maybe 70 mil or so over the next 4 years. Spending that money at other positions is something they may well consider. And Burrow is the best player on the team. Agreed you need volunteers not hostages in Tomlin's phrase. But Jefferson got 110 mil guaranteed and the Bengals are unlikely to approach that number. The Bengals maintain good cap health by not mortgaging the future with long term guarantees. There's more than 1 way to skin a cat... or tiger. Look if you're not gonna resign JaMarr Chase that's on you guys, you'll fall back into mediocrity and waste Joe Burrow's prime. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabbs4u Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 (edited) 11 minutes ago, sparky151 said: Agreed you need volunteers not hostages in Tomlin's phrase. But Jefferson got 110 mil guaranteed and the Bengals are unlikely to approach that number. The Bengals maintain good cap health by not mortgaging the future with long term guarantees. Then Chase will not be a Bengal in 2026. Mark it down. Zero doubt in my mind if they are stupid enough to try and low ball him, not treat him like the top 5 WR he is and paid accordingly with his peers. He will make Trent Williams and Jalen Ramsey's Skins/Jags debacle of negotiations and excuse making look like child's play and force a trade. You pay your best players, not treat them like the insignificant Pons and POS you are suggesting. Edited June 3 by Nabbs4u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky151 Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 8 minutes ago, Danger said: There's more than 1 way to skin a cat... or tiger. Look if you're not gonna resign JaMarr Chase that's on you guys, you'll fall back into mediocrity and waste Joe Burrow's prime. It very much depends on what they do with the money they save if they don't pay Chase. Most likely they will pay Ja'Marr as Burrow will want that and his views carry a lot of weight with the owners. 3 minutes ago, Nabbs4u said: Then Chase will not be a Bengal in 2026. Mark it down. Zero doubt in my mind if they are stupid enough to try and low ball him, not treat him like the top 5 WR he is and paid accordingly with his peers. He will make Trent Williams and Jalen Ramsey's Skins/Jags debacle of negotiations and excuse making look like child's play. You pay your best players, not treat them like the insignificant pieces you are suggesting. Chase will either be under contract or on the tag in 2026. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 7 minutes ago, sparky151 said: It very much depends on what they do with the money they save if they don't pay Chase. Most likely they will pay Ja'Marr as Burrow will want that and his views carry a lot of weight with the owners. Chase will either be under contract or on the tag in 2026. Being cheap and Penny pinching does nothing for you. You guys know he's a bonafide superstar and franchise cornerstone, waiting just costs more. DeVonta and Waddle who are in the same draft class both already got paid, if you're expecting him to get paid 3 years later, his deal is going to be massively more expensive. But sure go ahead and piss off your 2nd best player and pay more in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabbs4u Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 7 minutes ago, sparky151 said: Chase will either be under contract or on the tag in 2026. You're continually missing the point. But hey follow the Jags way of thinking. GL https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27699756/why-jaguars-leverage-jalen-ramsey-how-change See it now. Ja'Marr Chase's 2026 contract extension. The Bengals WR has just signed a contract extension for 4 years $160M, with $130M guaranteed. 👌 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramssuperbowl99 Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 1 minute ago, Nabbs4u said: See it now. Ja'Marr Chase's 2026 contract extension. The Bengals WR has just signed a contract extension for 4 years $160M, with $130M guaranteed. 👌 This would be cheaper than JJ's 4/$140MM 2024 extension provided the cap is at least $291MM. Sportrac estimates the 2026 cap at $292.4MM. So using your numbers the Bengals would be saving money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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