The good, the bad, the we lost to the panthers

[big_palooka]

2 hours ago, bucksavage1 said:

Overall, across the league, it proves at the NFL is a week to week league

You’re not as good as you were the week before and they’re not as bad as you seem to before

Agree, but fairly safe to say this team has the look of a bottom 5 team. Which was obvious, coaching matters and they have bad group of coaches. Couple that with a bottom 5 starter at QB.

Pretty obvious this team was over achieving last season post JMD as teams often do. They did nothing notable to elevate from the roster, schemes, etc. post JMD and have now reverted back to basically being the same team they were under him. 

[ronjon1990]

5 hours ago, justwinbaby81 said:

Not engaging in the AP trashing that comes with every loss. It's tiresome and we just get whipsawed as a fan base each week.  

But what I want to know is what changed from a big win last week that caused "business decisions". Adams was clearly frustrated but he had a massive game last week and has his fair share of blame for yesterday with his costly drops (and possible miscommunication on INT). 

I suspect it is players on defense AP is referring to, because the tackling was atrocious. Bad play is one thing but a lack of effort is perplexing on the heels of a huge win.

It's both sides of the ball. 

There is a desire to overlook Adams because he's a star for a star-starved franchise. But he's checked out. He's pissed off. His effort is up and down. The fact he just had a big game against Baltimore shows he can still ball, so it's not an age thing. 

He and Brock put the team on their backs against Baltimore only to watch the offense come out flatter than a board yesterday. That has to be infuriating for players, thar we continue to push what isn't working. I suspect Adams isn't the only one on offense, but he's the most visible. Whether it's play calling or decision making (ie: when we decide to go for it on 4th vs when we don't has no rhyme or rhythm), the offense stinks. As fans we're puzzled, so players who have seen and played in better must be ready to lose their minds. 

On D....where do we even begin? These guys throw their bodies at runners on a weekly basis. For what? The offense to go 3 and out and put them right back on the field? The opening drive was ugly, but by halftime our D was flat out disinterested. It's not hard to see why, imo. They're probably on the sideline thinking "What the heck? We're already going back out there...again? And we went for a dumb 4th down in our own territory instead of punting? Thanks a lot!". 

And Maxx. This isn't going to be popular, but he was making business decisions too. I get it, he's dinged up. I don't blame him. But I saw him hesitate to engage a blocker on quite a few occasions yesterday. Nobody will want to say it, because Maxx is beloved, but he wasn't 100% in the game either. 

And that is a culture problem that many feared with Pierce's style. He's a ra-ra locker room guy. There are going to be clear favorites and there are going to be guys that don't get the special treatment. That happens everywhere, but it doesn't mean it's not an issue, especially when things go bad. 

"Some guys were making business decisions" is a bad look this early in the year and in someone's tenure. The entire team looked like they were making business decisions, but my guess is 1 or 2 guys get the scapegoat treatment, which is just more of the same poor control we saw under McDaniels. 

And here's what's most bewildering to me about it- I said one of the concerns I had about AP was he wanted to be "one of the boys" and would need to show he could actually lead and control the locker room- and I was one who made the case for hiring the guy. The biggest concern was a team where the inmates ran the asylum. And we have Marvin Freakin Lewis on staff, the guy who oversaw how many talented but totally mismanaged Bengals teams where that exact thing occurred? To make matters worse, AP (and Lewis) were with Herm Edwards at Arizona St before coming to the Raiders. Look at what was happening there. There's a pattern and a blueprint, and neither are good. 

Now, so as to not blindly pile on AP:

He's new to this. There will be hiccups. He's not entirely tainted beyond salvaging. But I have very real concerns over who he learned his management styles from (Edwards/Lewis/McDaniels* sort of) and who he's leaning on to steer the ship. I believe we're seeing it play put that way. 

I thought about it overnight. I said remove AP and give Lewis the reins for the season. That was reactionary and giving deference to Lewis for his distant past as a HC. After really dogging through the old Bengals teams and the ASU stuff, my opinion is that AP needs to send Lewis packing. It's not a good influence to have beyond "he was a former HC". There's too much rot and baggage strewn along the way for it to be a positive influence on a coach trying to "figure it out". 

Pierce has an opportunity here to right the ship and rebound. Anyone expecting him to morph into a top 5 HC overnight is asking too much. There's a learning curve and sure to be bumps along the way. But given that he's learning what works and what doesn't, there comes a point where leaning on the wrong people becomes an exercise in futility. 

Lewis is the AHC, and he was right there in AP's ear yesterday. We have solid guys on the staff with experience and without the traceable baggage that Marvin Lewis brings. Philbin, Bennett, Graham (even though I think he's highly overrated), Ryan, guys without the depth of experience but comes from various trees with solid roots like Ricky Manning and Andre Carter. There's a solid base to build on and learn from. But amongst the staff, Marvin Lewis stands out for a lot of the wrong reasons given what our issues appear to be, and he seems to be the biggest of the influences on Pierce. Saying it now- that's a problem that won't just go away. 

What changed from last week to this week? Nothing. That's the problem. We're not making adjustments away from what doesn't work, we're essentially resetting each week, and we have the bones of a management style with deep roots of locker room rot. 

[NCOUGHMAN]

2 hours ago, #1RAIDER FAN said:

Looking on X/Twitter, hints are at Moehrig and Jack Jones. Jones had a chance to help on a tackle and instead backed off avoiding the contact. 

Jones was the only guy tackling yesterday even spill was missing tackles

[NCOUGHMAN]

52 minutes ago, BackinBlack said:

He was definitely hurt on the field and they paused game for a min for him. 
Not sure if he came back in or not after tho.

I know mumford went down didn’t see parham 

[big_palooka]

1 minute ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Jones was the only guy tackling yesterday even spill was missing tackles

 

[big_palooka]

Moehrig is still awful. Don't get what anyone ever saw in that guy. 

[Jerry]

18 hours ago, big_palooka said:

What's the opposite of cigars post victory?

Smoking a turd. 😭

[Jerry]

17 hours ago, big_palooka said:

 

That's on you my man. How many weeks until he looses the locker room?

I remember saying this.  Not saying for sure it was going to happen, but that losses would eventually lose to losing the locker room.  We'll see what happens.  He's working with a mediocre roster.  Hard to fix overnight.

[NCOUGHMAN]

5 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

 

Cherry picked he had a few td saving tackles too

[big_palooka]

1 minute ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Cherry picked he had a few td saving tackles too

I agree. But if we're talking business decisions, that's one. 

[Jerry]

15 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Waldron would've been nice. 

Chicago looks bad, but let's be blunt- Caleb looks bad. His decision making is God awful. What we're seeing there is what the Caleb skeptics saw all along- he shined vs lesser talent but looked mortal the 1 or 2 games they played against good defenses, and he doesn't have that luxury at this level, until we start seeing UXFL-NFL exhibition games. 

Waldron has a good track record, Williams is an overhyped rookie. I'd take my shot with Waldron 10/10 times, even today. He's not the problem with the Bears offense. 

Chicago is where QB's go to fail miserably.  I don't think there is a QB on the planet that could succeed on that team  Just historically bad.  Caleb will probably move onto another team and start playing like Geno Smith, Sam Darnold, and Baker Mayfield.  

[Jerry]

15 hours ago, Chali21 said:

Honestly this sort of reminds me of the 06 season. The a vet at QB who was probably the worst option, a young guy who’ll probably be out of the league in a few years behind him. A hall of fame WR being wasted on a middling offense ran by a guy who should be running a bed and breakfast. A HC who just has vibes as their reason to be hired. All we need is one of the DBs to breakout. 

Kerry Collins, M. Tui, and Randy Moss.  I would assume those are the 3 you're talking about.

[justwinbaby81]

33 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

 

That's a pretty damning play. Didn't notice that live, and I can't bring myself to rewatch the game. Thanks for sharing that, pretty clear lack of any effort there. He also had a chance to turn the game around with the INT he couldn't pull in. 

AP putting Jones on blast would make sense due to their history and that he took a chance on him last year. I don't expect Jones to be cut, but no reason Bennett and Hobbs couldn't start next week. 

[justwinbaby81]

49 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

It's both sides of the ball. 

There is a desire to overlook Adams because he's a star for a star-starved franchise. But he's checked out. He's pissed off. His effort is up and down. The fact he just had a big game against Baltimore shows he can still ball, so it's not an age thing. 

He and Brock put the team on their backs against Baltimore only to watch the offense come out flatter than a board yesterday. That has to be infuriating for players, thar we continue to push what isn't working. I suspect Adams isn't the only one on offense, but he's the most visible. Whether it's play calling or decision making (ie: when we decide to go for it on 4th vs when we don't has no rhyme or rhythm), the offense stinks. As fans we're puzzled, so players who have seen and played in better must be ready to lose their minds. 

On D....where do we even begin? These guys throw their bodies at runners on a weekly basis. For what? The offense to go 3 and out and put them right back on the field? The opening drive was ugly, but by halftime our D was flat out disinterested. It's not hard to see why, imo. They're probably on the sideline thinking "What the heck? We're already going back out there...again? And we went for a dumb 4th down in our own territory instead of punting? Thanks a lot!". 

And Maxx. This isn't going to be popular, but he was making business decisions too. I get it, he's dinged up. I don't blame him. But I saw him hesitate to engage a blocker on quite a few occasions yesterday. Nobody will want to say it, because Maxx is beloved, but he wasn't 100% in the game either. 

And that is a culture problem that many feared with Pierce's style. He's a ra-ra locker room guy. There are going to be clear favorites and there are going to be guys that don't get the special treatment. That happens everywhere, but it doesn't mean it's not an issue, especially when things go bad. 

"Some guys were making business decisions" is a bad look this early in the year and in someone's tenure. The entire team looked like they were making business decisions, but my guess is 1 or 2 guys get the scapegoat treatment, which is just more of the same poor control we saw under McDaniels. 

And here's what's most bewildering to me about it- I said one of the concerns I had about AP was he wanted to be "one of the boys" and would need to show he could actually lead and control the locker room- and I was one who made the case for hiring the guy. The biggest concern was a team where the inmates ran the asylum. And we have Marvin Freakin Lewis on staff, the guy who oversaw how many talented but totally mismanaged Bengals teams where that exact thing occurred? To make matters worse, AP (and Lewis) were with Herm Edwards at Arizona St before coming to the Raiders. Look at what was happening there. There's a pattern and a blueprint, and neither are good. 

Now, so as to not blindly pile on AP:

He's new to this. There will be hiccups. He's not entirely tainted beyond salvaging. But I have very real concerns over who he learned his management styles from (Edwards/Lewis/McDaniels* sort of) and who he's leaning on to steer the ship. I believe we're seeing it play put that way. 

I thought about it overnight. I said remove AP and give Lewis the reins for the season. That was reactionary and giving deference to Lewis for his distant past as a HC. After really dogging through the old Bengals teams and the ASU stuff, my opinion is that AP needs to send Lewis packing. It's not a good influence to have beyond "he was a former HC". There's too much rot and baggage strewn along the way for it to be a positive influence on a coach trying to "figure it out". 

Pierce has an opportunity here to right the ship and rebound. Anyone expecting him to morph into a top 5 HC overnight is asking too much. There's a learning curve and sure to be bumps along the way. But given that he's learning what works and what doesn't, there comes a point where leaning on the wrong people becomes an exercise in futility. 

Lewis is the AHC, and he was right there in AP's ear yesterday. We have solid guys on the staff with experience and without the traceable baggage that Marvin Lewis brings. Philbin, Bennett, Graham (even though I think he's highly overrated), Ryan, guys without the depth of experience but comes from various trees with solid roots like Ricky Manning and Andre Carter. There's a solid base to build on and learn from. But amongst the staff, Marvin Lewis stands out for a lot of the wrong reasons given what our issues appear to be, and he seems to be the biggest of the influences on Pierce. Saying it now- that's a problem that won't just go away. 

What changed from last week to this week? Nothing. That's the problem. We're not making adjustments away from what doesn't work, we're essentially resetting each week, and we have the bones of a management style with deep roots of locker room rot. 

A lot of rationality there. Good points. This will be a true test next week. 

Week two: Can we compete with a contender. Can we be resilient in the second half. Can we make plays when we need to. Can we overcome our past Easter Coast issues. Checked most of the boxes.

Week three: Can we re-focus and take care of business against an "inferior" team. Can we build off our 2nd half success in Baltimore. Can we avoid being down early and playing from behind. Checked zero boxes.

Week four: Can we get back to .500 before our schedule starts to get tougher. Can we show consistent effort. Can we adjust the game plan that has had minimal success. Can we execute plays. Can someone step up on the defensive line other than Maxx. Can the defense match what Spillane brings every game. Can the new offensive line group gel and protect. Can we run the ball with any success whatsoever. Can we avoid another disaster.

I wouldn't have called weeks 1-3 pivotal games. This is a pivotal game. So many teams dealing with challenges already so it's not insurmountable, but we are in a bad spot and need to rebound now. I didn't have a lot of confidence going into yesterday's game and I have even less for next week. Browns are desperate too. The true character of this team will emerge quickly.

[reddevil]

2 hours ago, Darbsk said:

Yeh, to me it seems like (and I might be wrong here) but there is disconnect between the OC the QB and the HC. They don’t all seem on the same page. With this in mind, I’d like to see O’Connell start just so we can get a handle on the Getsy scheme. Put a QB in who can play to the scheme and let’s evaluate that at least. If we can suddenly move the ball and look functional then we know it’s been a QB/OC issue. If we’re just he same then it’s probably a HC/OC issue as the QBs are so different.

That’s a good way of looking at it:

- AP wants smash mouth, old school ground game, control the clock

- Getsy seems to want to get guys open on intermediate stuff, QB to go through reads and get the ball out quickly

- Minshew can’t stay still enough to get through his reads and wants to ad lib

When you zoom out, it really is a mess. Everyone with different ideas and experience.

I think you and I both were pro AOC. At least with him in you would get closer to what Getsy seems to want. And I would also bet that he would be able to find rhythm enough at times to control the clock more.

Makes the decision to start Minshew all the more inexplicable 

Edited Monday at 07:06 PM by reddevil