Random Packer News & Notes

[vegas492]

17 hours ago, Old Guy said:

No, you didn't. Yes, Joe Thomas is going in the HOF. He's been out of the league for 5 years, so him getting in has nothing to do with Bakh. I don't see how Whitworth gets in other than longevity, not ability. He was never at Bakh's level. 

Trent Williams is no better than Bakh. He plays in bigger markets and gets more attention. Same dilemma LeRoy Butler suffered from and the reason he had to wait so long to get in. 

Bakh has been the best pass blocking LT for about 6 years, prior to his injury. You have no metric to disprove that. I supplied one that proves it and you attack the source. It certainly won't be the only measuring stick, but you better believe some of these writers who vote are going to look at those metrics when judging offensive linemen. Winning a Super Bowl this year with Jordan Love won't hurt his chances. 

Bakh needs two more elite years and he's in. One more and he's on the bubble. 

Yes I did.  You failed when you mentioned PFF metrics and what a huge gap 9 points is.  That is buying into the PFF argument for how good Bakh is in relation to the HOF discussion.

You are clearly Pro PFF OL scoring metrics, because it supports your eye ball test.  

My guess is that if you were a Cowboys fan, we'd be having this same kind of conversation around Tyron Smith.  They are kindda in the same boat.   (Only Tyron has many more off-season awards than Bakh.)

Joe Thomas is and was easily better than Bakh.  

Orlando Pace is and was easily better than Bakh.

Tony Boselli, pre-inury, was easily better than Bakh.

Those are your three pretty recent inductees into the HOF.

Bakh didn't even make any "All Decade" teams when he was in his prime.

That all being said, you being very wrong and all (and this I'm saying to get your riled up before you read the next part), I still agree with you, to a point.

Bakh needs more years of elite play, and I dare say All Pro (First or Second Team) recognition if he is getting into the HOF.

And it won't be easy for him, as he will have Whitworth to compete against as well as Williams and Smith.  Say what you want about them, but they were on All Decade Teams and Williams has 10 Pro Bowls in 12 Years of playing.  Smith has 8 Pro Bowls in 12 Years of playing.  I know Pro Bowls are not as good as they once were for recognition, but still, 10 in 12 years.  Bakh has 3, for reference.

[vegas492]

18 hours ago, craig said:

Tangent from HOF-discussion is the question of Bakhti's future with the Packers.

• Routine consensus assumption is that he's gone after the season.  
• Current deal has $19 dead cap, plus $21 more for the year if they kept him under existing contract.

I wonder if Gute will necessarily cut him and eat the $19.  We all understand offering extended 4th contracts to guys who are 32 isn't the Packers way and isn't normally ideal.  

But what if hypothetically Bakhti stays relatively healthy this season, plays at a competitive level, and doesn't want to retire? 

• Bahkti and agent know he's not coming back under existing deal.  Either sign some extension with us, or sign new deal someplace else. 
• Whoever signs him, the same issues of age, injury, and potential decline apply.  No more/less problematic for us than for anybody else.  
• Not sure other bidders will be in better space cap-wise than us.  [We'll be in better position than most contending teams.]
• *IF* Love does badly and Packers lose ≥10 games, obviously no sense for Bakhti to want to come back.  Close the door, eat the $19M in dead cap, and let the rebuild continue.  
• But what *if* hypothetically Love turns out to be good, and Packers are a 10-win division winner?   
• Might not the Packers be the best contender with space to absorb Bakhti? 
• Is it possible that *IF* Bakhti stays reasonably healthy, that Gute might see a young roster as having rising Super Bowl possibilities?  And with cash to spare, might Gute envision Bakhti as better than Tenata, Telford, Walker, or Jones?  Maybe better than the 2nd-best of Tom/Nijman?   

I'd prefer to envision a scenario where Tom and Nijman both look like HOF tackles, and Jones and Walker too.  But there could be a scenario where even at age 32, that Bakhti might still be the best tackle we've got.  

 

We are the team that paid and played Chad Clifton until he was 35.  And I think we did that because we had a rising star in Rodgers and really needed his blindside protected.

It takes two to tango, as in Bakh and GB's front office.  But, if Love shows to have the stuff, and our young WR's do as well, there is a scenario out there where we continue to pay Bakh.

And the wildcard is going to be Tom.  To a lesser extent, Walker.  If those guys show a lot of development, then it may not matter (Love's play).  Then it becomes economics.

[Zycho32]

3 minutes ago, Brat&Beer said:

The guy who has punted for the Raiders since 2019 has never had a punt blocked. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/ColeAJ01.htm

I was referring to the pressures.

[vegas492]

4 hours ago, Zycho32 said:

Is it possible to check on how the Raiders ranked in the preceeding seasons? Because Option C might be Rich sacrificing protection to emphasize getting downfield pressure on the returner.

Could also be that we showed weakness there, so teams tried hard to exploit it.

[vegas492]

38 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

On the Bakhtiari discussion, you guys gotta remember that much of the Offensive Lineman discussion isn't really about accolades, it's about reputation more than it is anything else. Overreliance on PFF is changing that a little, but it's still mostly about guys swapping manly stories about how dominant a guy was. 

Bakhtiari's reputation as an elite pass blocker and a middling run blocker is going to hurt him in this regard. As is his pass blocking playstyle. The "Let the defender into your chest and then try and anchor in less than 2.5 steps before you get pushed back into the QB" style of pass blocking doesn't resonate with guys you're playing against. It makes them feel like they're doing really well and getting close, even if that's exactly what Bakhtiari wants. 

You can say that a guy like Trent Williams wasn't as good of a player as Bakhtiari on a spreadsheet and on a play-by-play basis you might have a point, but Trent Williams was a mauler in the run game. He looks the part more, and his more aggressive pass blocking style sticks out to people more. He is more demoralizing to play against, which is what a ton of the players who have some input on this kind of stuff will remember. 

Bakhtiari's hope against Trent Williams is the continued advancing pervasiveness of PFF into the discussion. 

Whitworth is a decent comparison to Bakhtiari, and I think it's a cleaner comparison, but the issue Bakhtiari will have with Whitworth is that Whitworth is so remarkably well liked by everybody around the league that he'll get the friends and family bump. Bakhtiari isn't going to get that. 

Whitworth is another PFF darling though. 

Piggybacking....

Williams.  There's the leadership quality there as well.  He's known as the SilverBack for a reason, and my guess is that it isn't because his backhair is grey.

You are 100% right about how they block and how Bakh's finesse game is different from Williams' game in a man's sport.

The Whitworth stuff is what I do not understand.  He's always on the All Decade list for 2010's, Bakh is not.  I didn't follow the Bengals much at all back then, so maybe he was that good, but the off-season accolades really do not show that.  I feel like he will get more HOF consideration at this point and time, and that has to be due to his relationship with the media.  But on the field, I don't feel like he had anything over Bakh.

[R T]

19 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

The Whitworth stuff is what I do not understand.

Whitworth played at a high level to his 40's and never had an injury derail part of a season until he was 39 and played in 9 games that season. He came back and played a full season at 40. He has played in over a 100 more games than Bakh, who will need 7 complete seasons to get to where Whitworth is now. Bakh's resume is not yet complete, and much is yet to be determined. As for now Whitworth is clearly ahead of Bakh in the HOF conversation. 

[Old Guy]

8 minutes ago, R T said:

Whitworth played at a high level to his 40's and never had an injury derail part of a season until he was 39 and played in 9 games that season. He came back and played a full season at 40. He has played in over a 100 more games than Bakh, who will need 7 complete seasons to get to where Whitworth is now. Bakh's resume is not yet complete, and much is yet to be determined. As for now Whitworth is clearly ahead of Bakh in the HOF conversation. 

So the HOF is about longevity then? Bakh is a better player then Whitworth, but as @AlexGreen#20 pretty much stated, it's a popularity contest more than ability one. 

[R T]

2 minutes ago, Old Guy said:

So the HOF is about longevity then? Bakh is a better player then Whitworth, but as @AlexGreen#20 pretty much stated, it's a popularity contest more than ability one. 

Longevity is part of it. The 'Bakh is a better player' is very debatable, Bakh is a crafty pass protector, but Whitworth was probably the better complete OT. 

[vegas492]

12 minutes ago, R T said:

Whitworth played at a high level to his 40's and never had an injury derail part of a season until he was 39 and played in 9 games that season. He came back and played a full season at 40. He has played in over a 100 more games than Bakh, who will need 7 complete seasons to get to where Whitworth is now. Bakh's resume is not yet complete, and much is yet to be determined. As for now Whitworth is clearly ahead of Bakh in the HOF conversation. 

I get that, but let me ask you this.

In terms of on the field play.  Who is/was better?  Bakh or Whitworth?  (I ask because I do not know as I did not follow Whitworth's career.)

16 years for Whitworth, whose first stats came when he was 25.  That was the Mario Williams/Bush/Hawk draft.  4 Pro Bowls.  All Pro 3 times.  2 as first team, one as second team.

10 years for Bakh so far, whose first stats came when he was 22.  3 Pro Bowls.  5 All Pro Teams.  2 as first team.  3 as second team.

Whitworth has the SB title to his name.

[Zycho32]

6 minutes ago, Old Guy said:

So the HOF is about longevity then? Bakh is a better player then Whitworth, but as @AlexGreen#20 pretty much stated, it's a popularity contest more than ability one. 

Most off-shoots of the GOAT discussion turn into popularity contests.

That said, longevity can be a difference maker for one's HOF credentials, especially those whose career was more 'solid and good' than 'truly great'.

[vegas492]

7 minutes ago, Old Guy said:

So the HOF is about longevity then? Bakh is a better player then Whitworth, but as @AlexGreen#20 pretty much stated, it's a popularity contest more than ability one. 

Tony Boselli getting in means it is not really about longevity.  Certainly it will help some, but.....  

[Brat&Beer]

1 hour ago, Zycho32 said:

I was referring to the pressures.

Here.s an article I found on the subject from midway last season. Basically Bisaccia is saying because the Packers had a rookie snapper (Coco), teams were bringing pressure, as opposed to setting up a return, on a large percentage of punts. He felt they were handling it pretty well. They had had 1 blocked punt at the time. https://www.si.com/nfl/packers/news/odonnell-faces-more-pressure-than-any-punter

The current LS, Orzech is a 3 year vet. 

 

[Zycho32]

6 minutes ago, Brat&Beer said:

Here.s an article I found on the subject from midway last season. Basically Bisaccia is saying because the Packers had a rookie snapper (Coco), teams were bringing pressure, as opposed to setting up a return, on a large percentage of punts. He felt they were handling it pretty well. They had had 1 blocked punt at the time. https://www.si.com/nfl/packers/news/odonnell-faces-more-pressure-than-any-punter

The current LS, Orzech is a 3 year vet. 

 

All I needed to know, thanks a bunch!

[AlexGreen#20]

32 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Tony Boselli getting in means it is not really about longevity.  Certainly it will help some, but.....  

Boselli was just a different level. When healthy he was every bit the pass blocker Bakhtiari is while being a tremendous run blocker. 

He also gets a bump as the NFL wanted a Jaguar so every team had a player. 

[vegas492]

2 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Boselli was just a different level. When healthy he was every bit the pass blocker Bakhtiari is while being a tremendous run blocker. 

He also gets a bump as the NFL wanted a Jaguar so every team had a player. 

His accolades per season played is amazing.