WizardHawk Posted March 16, 2018 Author Share Posted March 16, 2018 18 hours ago, Dallas94Ware said: This team signed the top FA on the market - Lawrence. And its costing them a lot to do so. With Zeke, Dak, both entering year 3 and Martin due for a payday even sooner, you need to think about the future. Also, how is DT a weakness..Irving has been a really good player. If you mean nose, we have Collins and hipefully someone else to rotate there. The nose is NOT a huge factor in this system. not by a longshot. In this system the Lbs play off the front and react to the ball, not attack the ball - so "staying clean" with a big man in front of them does not matter. They will almlst always be clean because they are not in the trenches. Disagree with this completely. Nose Tackle is a huge weakness and a bigger factor than credited. How many players has Dallas run thru NT since they let McClain walk? Maliek Collins, Brian Price, Stephen Paea, Richard Ash. Daniel Ross, Lewis Neal, Joey Ivie, and Jordan Carrell. Am I missing anyone? I believe all of them have had their run at 1T and not one of them has played on par with McClain, who Dallas didn't want to pay $5m/yr. Did they save themselves money? Help themselves in any way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingmonkey30 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 12 minutes ago, WizardHawk said: Disagree with this completely. Nose Tackle is a huge weakness and a bigger factor than credited. How many players has Dallas run thru NT since they let McClain walk? Maliek Collins, Brian Price, Stephen Paea, Richard Ash. Daniel Ross, Lewis Neal, Joey Ivie, and Jordan Carrell. Am I missing anyone? I believe all of them have had their run at 1T and not one of them has played on par with McClain, who Dallas didn't want to pay $5m/yr. Did they save themselves money? Help themselves in any way? Agreed WH. I'm not saying they need to invest heavily in a nose. But for crying out loud try something else. We've been searching for the diamond in the rough for years and haven't found one. Spend a mid round pick on a guy that you feel good about instead of hoping to find a Damon Harrison in the 6th round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas94Ware Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Just now, WizardHawk said: Disagree with this completely. Nose Tackle is a huge weakness and a bigger factor than credited. How many players has Dallas run thru NT since they let McClain walk? Maliek Collins, Brian Price, Stephen Paea, Richard Ash. Daniel Ross, Lewis Neal, Joey Ivie, and Jordan Carrell. Am I missing anyone? I believe all of them have had their run at 1T and not one of them has played on par with McClain, who Dallas didn't want to pay $5m/yr. Did they save themselves money? Help themselves in any way? Like I said to Plan9 in another thread, man.. Donr confuse our struggle to find consistency at the spot with the spot being a huge weakness or the spot being a position of much value. In this system, the nose literally just has to ensure the underman has singular matchup. The linebackers play way off from the trenches, and hencd will always be "clean." The other argument for a Nt i keep hearing is stopping the run. Well, not in this system ... the play is reactive, not proactive. The DEs generate the negative plays with quick penetration and the underman holds the interior while the nose just prevents a lane by eating the two blockers. The linebackers are then reaponaible for getting to the ballcarrier. In other 43 fronts where the linebackers are working within the trenches, it is essential to have a nose who can "block out" the blockers from hitting the second level (keeping the LBs free) and also hold a single gap to aid in the run. But that is .proactive attempt to stop the run. Again, with how we run this front scheme wise, its proactive nature is to HOLD GROUND not attack and give ground up behind you. So a penetrating nose surrenders a potential lane as our underman penetrates. If you want to hold ground and prevent a big play, one of those inside two must simply hold space and not penetrate or you allow a potential lane for a big gain. The object is simple with ournsystem: Prevent a big play. Cant do that if all your guys are attacking. And if you want.to invest in an immovable fatso...that would be kind of wasteful. Yes, we need consistency badly at rhe spot. But investing much worth at the easiest role in our front 7 is like overpaying for windshield wiper fluid just becauae you ran out. It doesnt make sense. You can get it cheap and itll do the same thing, and not having a top caliber one isnt going to prevent your engine from running just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas94Ware Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, flyingmonkey30 said: Agreed WH. I'm not saying they need to invest heavily in a nose. But for crying out loud try something else. We've been searching for the diamond in the rough for years and haven't found one. Spend a mid round pick on a guy that you feel good about instead of hoping to find a Damon Harrison in the 6th round. I get the frustration, but what are you expecting from the nose here? What are you not seeing from Collins there? Even Irving when given the duty? Paea did fairly well too, Price even wasnt tok shabby. You wont see statbook stuff from these guys. They can be spectacular and in this system rack up 0 tackles and 0 sacks in 16 games started and 80% of snaps played. It just isnt that kind of system. What are you not seeing from Collins? What are you expecting from the position? Where do you see this position holding us back? If you understand the schematics of how our front 7 is designed, you dont see it setting the unit back at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweetFancyMoses Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Weren't we the 8th best rushing D and the 11th vs the pass last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas94Ware Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 1 minute ago, SweetFancyMoses said: Weren't we the 8th best rushing D and the 11th vs the pass last year? Yep, with Irving missing a chunk of time, with Lee missing a few games and Hitchens missing the early part of the season. The Nose wasnt holding this team back anymore than anything else. The D played well with low budget guys manning the spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizardHawk Posted March 16, 2018 Author Share Posted March 16, 2018 Well, we'll agree to disagree. You could write a novel on the topic of NT in this defense and how addressing it with low budget players is fine and I still wouldn't buy into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas94Ware Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 25 minutes ago, WizardHawk said: Well, we'll agree to disagree. You could write a novel on the topic of NT in this defense and how addressing it with low budget players is fine and I still wouldn't buy into it. Thats fine; but the money would be better spent elsewhere. And I still think you are selling Collins very short. He didnt play underman very well at all, well below what we expected anyway. But as a nose he held his own against some formidable duos including those road graders in Washington, which was a tough task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingmonkey30 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 47 minutes ago, Dallas94Ware said: Like I said to Plan9 in another thread, man.. Donr confuse our struggle to find consistency at the spot with the spot being a huge weakness or the spot being a position of much value. In this system, the nose literally just has to ensure the underman has singular matchup. The linebackers play way off from the trenches, and hencd will always be "clean." The other argument for a Nt i keep hearing is stopping the run. Well, not in this system ... the play is reactive, not proactive. The DEs generate the negative plays with quick penetration and the underman holds the interior while the nose just prevents a lane by eating the two blockers. The linebackers are then reaponaible for getting to the ballcarrier. In other 43 fronts where the linebackers are working within the trenches, it is essential to have a nose who can "block out" the blockers from hitting the second level (keeping the LBs free) and also hold a single gap to aid in the run. But that is .proactive attempt to stop the run. Again, with how we run this front scheme wise, its proactive nature is to HOLD GROUND not attack and give ground up behind you. So a penetrating nose surrenders a potential lane as our underman penetrates. If you want to hold ground and prevent a big play, one of those inside two must simply hold space and not penetrate or you allow a potential lane for a big gain. The object is simple with ournsystem: Prevent a big play. Cant do that if all your guys are attacking. And if you want.to invest in an immovable fatso...that would be kind of wasteful. Yes, we need consistency badly at rhe spot. But investing much worth at the easiest role in our front 7 is like overpaying for windshield wiper fluid just becauae you ran out. It doesnt make sense. You can get it cheap and itll do the same thing, and not having a top caliber one isnt going to prevent your engine from running just fine. This is what I'm talking about though. We've struggled to find consistency because we don't invest in NT at all. Again, I'm not saying go spend $50M on a guy, or spend number 19 on a NT, but gimme a guy in the fourth round like Nnadi or Fatukasi or something, and a decent 1T like Logan or Beau Allen (off the board already). I'm not asking for world beaters, just consistent play. I understand schematically the other 10 positions on the field are more "valuable", but that doesn't mean I can't find a more talented player to man that position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas94Ware Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 23 minutes ago, flyingmonkey30 said: This is what I'm talking about though. We've struggled to find consistency because we don't invest in NT at all. Again, I'm not saying go spend $50M on a guy, or spend number 19 on a NT, but gimme a guy in the fourth round like Nnadi or Fatukasi or something, and a decent 1T like Logan or Beau Allen (off the board already). I'm not asking for world beaters, just consistent play. I understand schematically the other 10 positions on the field are more "valuable", but that doesn't mean I can't find a more talented player to man that position But what do you see or not see from Collins that makes you feel he hasnt done well enough there? Or even Price for that matter, when rotating? What is it you are expecting to see from this spot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizardHawk Posted March 16, 2018 Author Share Posted March 16, 2018 Besides out of necessity, which is the reason Collins played nose, why after what he showed his rookie season, would anyone in their right mind want to move him? It slays me. Makes no sense at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas94Ware Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 1 hour ago, WizardHawk said: Besides out of necessity, which is the reason Collins played nose, why after what he showed his rookie season, would anyone in their right mind want to move him? It slays me. Makes no sense at all. Because at the under spot, Irvinf is much more effective. And when rotating under/nose spots with Irving, you create opportunities for both. Collins has been the most effective nose we have had besides McClain, and McClain was really only effective at the nose when we were not playing for containment - which was not often enough to pay him that 5mil/yr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingmonkey30 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 2 hours ago, Dallas94Ware said: But what do you see or not see from Collins that makes you feel he hasnt done well enough there? Or even Price for that matter, when rotating? What is it you are expecting to see from this spot? I guess Collins can do it, but we drafted him to be a 3. I think he thrives there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas94Ware Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 1 minute ago, flyingmonkey30 said: I guess Collins can do it, but we drafted him to be a 3. I think he thrives there. More than Irving? The best I have seen out of them both is when they both rotate between the nose and the under, they compliment each other well. He was a better prospect as an undertackle, but taking Irving off the field to put in Collins doesnt make much sense. Them rotating opportunities as both spots made sense, and it worked pretty well.. top 10 defense vs the run with Collins, Price and Irving rotating through the nose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingmonkey30 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Just now, Dallas94Ware said: More than Irving? The best I have seen out of them both is when they both rotate between the nose and the under, they compliment each other well. He was a better prospect as an undertackle, but taking Irving off the field to put in Collins doesnt make much sense. Them rotating opportunities as both spots made sense, and it worked pretty well.. top 10 defense vs the run with Collins, Price and Irving rotating through the nose I'd rather see something like Logan or a rookie and Price rotating at the 1, and Irving/Collins rotating at the 3. Even sliding Irving outside once in a while because he can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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