Cody Latimer Signs with NYG. So what does this mean for our need at WR?

[champ11]

2 hours ago, broncofan48 said:

Dude that game almost killed me.  Biggest let down sports wise of my life, the Seattle Superbowl is close but I was so drunk after that game started going south that I honestly don't remember much of it

It's honestly not even close for me. Baltimore game is by far the worst sports loss of my life. Super Bowl was over in 5-10 minutes. The better team won. It was a long time to accept defeat and drink lol. Baltimore game was so so much worse. 

[Broncofan]

2 hours ago, broncos67 said:

His level of competition is also significantly lower than Barkley playing in the B1G. 

Royce Freeman is a different story. I like him a lot. Renck and Klis have floated his name too. He's definitely on our board.

And Big 10 D’s knew he was the O.  

My main issue with Freeman is the mileage he’s put on already and more importantly the inability to assess his vision / decisiveness in that O vs. PAC-10 D’s. The holes there are ridiculous in that O.  One thing you can say about Big 10 / SEC RB’s and OL is they are battle tested vs top level D’s so you get a better feel for how they operate in traffic and tight spaces.  Why I love OL from the Big 10 so so much especially when they are from meh teams they have excelled vs the best D’s. 

[germ-x]

I have no idea, just wanting other opinions, but do most of you think Denver is going RB in the top 3 rounds?

[Broncofan]

28 minutes ago, germ-x said:

I have no idea, just wanting other opinions, but do most of you think Denver is going RB in the top 3 rounds?

God I hope so.

Listen, I love Booker for what he is - a great pass-catching RB who can be a real threat there.  But I hoped he'd be a do-it-all RB - he's not shown anything in the run game.  I had hoped so, but he's not.  And even if he somehow improves in the run game - he's going to be on his last year of a rookie deal next year.   At which point you thank him for his time, and you say goodbye.  No repeats of CJ Anderson too-expensive deal.  As for DeAngelo Henderson - he was on the roster last year, and couldn't break through until the 16th week - and his week 17 catch and run was against the KC 2nd-string D - so I can't really say we can depend on anything.   

This is a great RB class, not like the legendary 2017 class, but almost as deep (just not the same top-end talent as last year - but Barkley tops them all by a mile - after that, though, I'd only put Michel & Guice in the same tier, and Guice isn't nearly as good of a home run threat or pass catcher, more like a Fournette light, 20+ carry guy with very little to offer in pass game, which is why I don't like his fit with us).     This is a year to invest somewhere - either 2.7 with Michel, or 3.8/3.99 with Penny, or another versatile RB.  

Point being, RB is so disposible - you should be investing regularly - unless you get a generational, HoF-level ceiling talent like Barkley (and even then, you should dip back into RB as Year 4 of the rookie deal approaches, just for succession planning after Year 5 - albeit with a Day 3 pick, like PIT did with Le'veon Bell, except they chose very poorly with James Connor - great story, but guys who come back from cancer aren't guaranteed to be the same, and that's what he's shown so far).   

[germ-x]

19 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

God I hope so.

Listen, I love Booker for what he is - a great pass-catching RB who can be a real threat there.  But I hoped he'd be a do-it-all RB - he's not shown anything in the run game.  I had hoped so, but he's not.  And even if he somehow improves in the run game - he's going to be on his last year of a rookie deal next year.   At which point you thank him for his time, and you say goodbye.  No repeats of CJ Anderson too-expensive deal.  As for DeAngelo Henderson - he was on the roster last year, and couldn't break through until the 16th week - and his week 17 catch and run was against the KC 2nd-string D - so I can't really say we can depend on anything.   

This is a great RB class, not like the legendary 2017 class, but almost as deep (just not the same top-end talent as last year - but Barkley tops them all by a mile - after that, though, I'd only put Michel & Guice in the same tier, and Guice isn't nearly as good of a home run threat or pass catcher, more like a Fournette light, 20+ carry guy with very little to offer in pass game, which is why I don't like his fit with us).     This is a year to invest somewhere - either 2.7 with Michel, or 3.8/3.99 with Penny, or another versatile RB.  

Point being, RB is so disposible - you should be investing regularly - unless you get a generational, HoF-level ceiling talent like Barkley (and even then, you should dip back into RB as Year 4 of the rookie deal approaches, just for succession planning after Year 5 - albeit with a Day 3 pick, like PIT did with Le'veon Bell, except they chose very poorly with James Connor - great story, but guys who come back from cancer aren't guaranteed to be the same, and that's what he's shown so far).   

And your last paragraph is kind of my stance, it’s disposable.  Like you, I get Barkley, will be happy with the selection he’s an elite player. After that though I don’t really see the value with a team with so many holes and RB actually being somewhat of a strength.  Anderson/Booker isn’t a bad combo.  Henderson also still has some upside.  

At 3.99 and later I’m fine going RB if it’s good value.  2.7 and 3.8, I think there is far better value at different positions than RB. I don’t see Guice, Michel, Penny, Freeman really moving the needle anymore for Denver than a guy that can be had in the 4th round.  

[Broncofan]

9 minutes ago, germ-x said:

And your last paragraph is kind of my stance, it’s disposable.  Like you, I get Barkley, will be happy with the selection he’s an elite player. After that though I don’t really see the value with a team with so many holes and RB actually being somewhat of a strength.  Anderson/Booker isn’t a bad combo.  Henderson also still has some upside.  

At 3.99 and later I’m fine going RB if it’s good value.  2.7 and 3.8, I think there is far better value at different positions than RB. I don’t see Guice, Michel, Penny, Freeman really moving the needle anymore for Denver than a guy that can be had in the 4th round.  

Here’s the thing though - I don’t expect we will see quite the same discount applied given how great the RB impacts have been after last year.  

I only reserve 2.7 for Michel.  Pretty much everyone else I want to wait until 3.8.   For the reasons you cited.  But I will pay 1 more round for a 3-down skill set.   That’s probably the new economics.   You can get RB value later but much less likely it’s a 3-down threat.   And we are better off in the O if we have a 3-down capable guy.   It doesn’t telegraph what we are doing.   

One key point - I do think RB is disposable. But there are still deeper classes of difference makers.   I’d take advantage of that.   Day 3 bargain RB’s aren’t usually complete guys though.  Getting a 3-down difference maker is much harder after Rd3.  Rd2-3 is where you find those guys.   

[germ-x]

5 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Here’s the thing though - I don’t expect we will see quite the same discount applied given how great the RB impacts have been after last year.  

I only reserve 2.7 for Michel.  Pretty much everyone else I want to wait until 3.8.   For the reasons you cited.  But I will pay 1 more round for a 3-down skill set.   That’s probably the new economics.   You can get RB value later but much less likely it’s a 3-down threat.   And we are better off in the O if we have a 3-down capable guy.   It doesn’t telegraph what we are doing.   

One key point - I do think RB is disposable. But there are still deeper classes of difference makers.   I’d take advantage of that.   Day 3 bargain RB’s aren’t usually complete guys though.  Getting a 3-down difference maker is much harder after Rd3.  Rd2-3 is where you find those guys.   

The 3 down aspect is almost moot in today’s game though.  Barkley is probably the only legitimate 3 down back in today’s NFL in this draft.  Everyone else is RB by committee.

With Anderson/Booker/Henderson I just don’t see the need to spend a top 75 pick on an RB with holes literally across the roster.  Anderson, at least for this year, can be your hammer, Booker has receiving skills, Henderson seems to be a nice in between and more of a homerun threat.  Use 3.99 or one of the early 4th rounders on the best RB available if Barkley isn’t there at 1.5.  It’s a deep RB class, RBs fall.  Again, part of manipulating the talent and draft board.

[Broncofan]

13 minutes ago, germ-x said:

The 3 down aspect is almost moot in today’s game though.  Barkley is probably the only legitimate 3 down back in today’s NFL in this draft.  Everyone else is RB by committee.

With Anderson/Booker/Henderson I just don’t see the need to spend a top 75 pick on an RB with holes literally across the roster.  Anderson, at least for this year, can be your hammer, Booker has receiving skills, Henderson seems to be a nice in between and more of a homerun threat.  Use 3.99 or one of the early 4th rounders on the best RB available if Barkley isn’t there at 1.5.  It’s a deep RB class, RBs fall.  Again, part of manipulating the talent and draft board.

FWIW I expect CJ will get released if we can’t work out a trade after the draft.  Otherwise most years I would agree with your take but I do think a Rd3 pick is worth some of the guys their skill set stands out that much more. 

[germ-x]

4 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

FWIW I expect CJ will get released if we can’t work out a trade after the draft.  Otherwise most years I would agree with your take but I do think a Rd3 pick is worth some of the guys their skill set stands out that much more. 

Agreed.  If Anderson isn’t part of the team this year, I get it.  If he is I’d really question that selection as there are far bigger needs (like OL/DL) with good players able to be had at 1.5, 2.7, and 3.8.

[Broncofan]

1 minute ago, germ-x said:

Agreed.  If Anderson isn’t part of the team this year, I get it.  If he is I’d really question that selection as there are far bigger needs (like OL/DL) with good players able to be had at 1.5, 2.7, and 3.8.

It sucks for CJ but I think Elway is keeping him for insurance in case he doesn’t get a RB.   If he gets RB then CJ is a goner.  

Like say if suddenly Elway didn’t have so many Day 2 picks (you know why) then he keeps CJ.   Or he gets the next RB and a trade / release happens afterwards.  I think he’s basically insurance as the draft can go so many ways. 

[germ-x]

5 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

It sucks for CJ but I think Elway is keeping him for insurance in case he doesn’t get a RB.   If he gets RB then CJ is a goner.  

Like say if suddenly Elway didn’t have so many Day 2 picks (you know why) then he keeps CJ.   Or he gets the next RB and a trade / release happens afterwards.  I think he’s basically insurance as the draft can go so many ways. 

Very well may be true.  I think it’s a mistake this year, though.

The OL class is also loaded.  If Denver weren’t to go Nelson at 1.5, I think it’s still plausible and with the draft capital they could come out with a starting LG and RT.  Maybe they really do believe Watson is serviceable at RT for this year.

People talk about trench play and with QB off the board for Denver, IMO, this is a year Denver should target the trenches.

[Broncofan]

7 minutes ago, germ-x said:

Very well may be true.  I think it’s a mistake this year, though.

The OL class is also loaded.  If Denver weren’t to go Nelson at 1.5, I think it’s still plausible and with the draft capital they could come out with a starting LG and RT.  Maybe they really do believe Watson is serviceable at RT for this year.

People talk about trench play and with QB off the board for Denver, IMO, this is a year Denver should target the trenches.

That's the problem. We have so many needs, it's hard to know where to start.  I do know that we just have to start taking best talent early, pretty much any position except S and you've hit a major need.   I'd have no problem if we went with G/C Day 2 if they are at the top of the Big Board because I agree it's a devalued position and that's a likely scenario.   I just don't want to see Elway reach for need with a guy who's clearly nowhere near best talent.   That has just killed us.

Day 2 RB, ILB, WR (assuming only 2-3 WR's go Rd1) and OL are all rich with talent.  Some with sneak into Day 3 (but not far).   That's the argument to taking Chubb, because in theory we can find RB & OL on Day 2 who can be starters (but we won't find the elite ceiling / safe floor RB/G talent that Barkley/Nelson provide, for sure).  If our picks are somewhere there, and Elway doesn't reach for the insane tools - no football skills guys, it will help.   I cringed when I saw Klis' report of targeting WR in Rd 1 if we trade back - that is exactly the kind of bad reach we have to stop making out of need.

[paul-mac]

1 hour ago, germ-x said:

I have no idea, just wanting other opinions, but do most of you think Denver is going RB in the top 3 rounds?

 

I'd be on board with Barkley at 5 because I legitimately think he's going to dominate in the NFL, but if we don't draft him then I don't really care for a RB at all in the draft. The way I see it with the RB position is you've got your Barkley/Fournette/Gurley/Zeke/AP level talents than can transcend poor OL play and have an almost QB like impact on your offense, and those guys I'll happily take in the top 10, but pretty much every other RB in the NFL is a function of how their Offensive Line plays, so investing draft picks in them is a false economy. I'd be quite happy entering camp with Booker, Henderson and a few undrafted guys competing for the carries.

[AKRNA]

4 hours ago, broncos67 said:

I would probably value Barkley and Hernandez over Nelson and Chubb, for example. Although it's close. I think Hernandez is closer to Nelson than some of the other backs are to Barkley, especially in terms of their ability to contribute quickly. 

To be honest, both guard and RB are not particularly strong positional value at #5 overall, but for me, RB inches out guard a bit. If it was RB vs. tackle, give me tackle every day. I'd almost prefer Bradley Chubb at this point just because of how highly I think of him as a player. 

Anyway, since this is a WR thread, I'm also not discounting the possibility of a WR much earlier than expected. One or both of Sanders/DT were nearly out the door this year. No reason to believe they'll for sure be around long-term, especially Sanders given his contract situation.

Here I've got to disagree. Nelson is the 1st of his type. Quickness of a man 25lbs lighter, incredible recognition skills, strong as a bull, nasty disposition. He's a 20lb larger Scherff.

I've been paying attention to OL guys for decades now and have never seen anyone like him. Guards 2,3, 4 are not even close to his level. Also, I'm not sure Price wouldn't be a better pick than Hernandez.

Nothing helps an offense more IMO than outstanding interior line play. Controlling the interior LOS opens up all methods of attack. Add Nelson to Leary, Paradis/McGovern and you've got one of the best interiors in the NFL.

[paul-mac]

20 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

Here I've got to disagree. Nelson is the 1st of his type. Quickness of a man 25lbs lighter, incredible recognition skills, strong as a bull, nasty disposition. He's a 20lb larger Scherff.

I've been paying attention to OL guys for decades now and have never seen anyone like him. Guards 2,3, 4 are not even close to his level. Also, I'm not sure Price wouldn't be a better pick than Hernandez.

Nothing helps an offense more IMO than outstanding interior line play. Controlling the interior LOS opens up all methods of attack. Add Nelson to Leary, Paradis/McGovern and you've got one of the best interiors in the NFL.

 

I’m sorry but it’s 2018 not 1964 and this simply isn’t true. Look at the best offensive lines in football, Tennessee last year only very luckily snuck into the playoffs, Dallas the year before that were good but there were a lot of reasons why they were good. The Raiders in 2015 had a great OL but still just an okay football team.

 

Meanwhile the Seahawks have been the dominant force of the NFC this decade with a poor OL. The Panthers made a Super Bowl with Mike Remmers and Michael Oher. Heck our own Super Bowl winning team was hardly great with Donald Stephenson and Ty Sambrailo getting benched for Mike Schofield at Left Tackle whilst rookie Max Garcia was in a 3 man rotation at Guard with Evan Mathis and Louis Vasquez. Oh and remember who the Left Tackle was? Ryan Harris.

 

The point is that an offensive line is a bit like a condom. You don’t want it splitting, but as long as it does it’s job and doesn’t let you down then you don’t necessarily need the best brand. In the modern day NFL it’s the QB that makes the offense tick, and the OL are just there to keep him upright and open a few holes for the RB. You seem to be determined to overrate the importance of OL play in every single post you make. The truth is that Bolles-Leary-Paradis-McGovern-Watson is already an average NFL OL and would be verging on very good if it wasn’t for the porous play of Menelik Watson, who is very likely to be replaced. Max Garcia isn’t a starter in the nfl but he might be the best reserve G/C in football, and overall there are quite a few other positions that should be higher priority in the draft.