Prospects Breakdown

[43M]

3 minutes ago, warfelg said:

And you used my favorite show for this. 

One of my faves, as well.  

[warfelg]

58 minutes ago, jebrick said:

Whichever LB they draft will be a coverage LB  LVE is better then Evans at coverage.  Griffin and Skai Moore would work as well.

 

I still think they do not touch LVE because of the Big school productive prospect angle for their 1st round picks.

So that story I linked earlier this offseason with quotes from the coaches saying they want 4 guys that can do everything went right over your head?  There's no such thing as a "coverage LB" and a "run LB" anymore in the defense.  

Hence give me Evans.  Coverage can be taught.  The instincts and anger in the run game Evans has can not be taught.

[jebrick]

Evans sucks in coverage.  Watch the CFP and see the several TDs he gave up.

If you ever got to watch Williams in coverage you would not say that they do not need a coverage LB.  The buck tends to come out on passing downs for the LB/SS.

When you compare LVE to Evans what jumps out at me is just the size and athleticism, and length and reach that LVE has over Evans.

LVE was 6'4" 256 and ran a 6.88 3 cone time, he jumped 39.5 inches, ran a 4.65 and has long arms, nearly 34 inches. Just like Watt last season I think he will excel in coverage and that size and length causes issues for QBs. When you have a normal, or smaller sized LB in coverage a QB has some leeway in fitting the ball into that window but when you have a Watt or LVE? It becomes more difficult because of their size and length, it is sort of like they have to worry about the catch radius of the defender.

Evans is just not the same athlete as LVE, he weighed almost 25 pounds less and yet managed only a 30 inch vertical, his 3 cone time was 6.95 which is not bad but not as good as LVE who, again is carrying 25 pounds more on his frame.

Imagine Evans trying to cover Gronk down the middle of the field. An obvious mismatch.

Then imagine a 6'4" LVE who has 34 inch arms and a vertical of 39.5 inches. Who do you think is more capable of covering Gronk, of forcing a contested catch? I know who I would want.

 

[Armsteeld2]

4 minutes ago, jebrick said:

Evans sucks in coverage.  Watch the CFP and see the several TDs he gave up.

If you ever got to watch Williams in coverage you would not say that they do not need a coverage LB.  The buck tends to come out on passing downs for the LB/SS.

When you compare LVE to Evans what jumps out at me is just the size and athleticism, and length and reach that LVE has over Evans.

LVE was 6'4" 256 and ran a 6.88 3 cone time, he jumped 39.5 inches, ran a 4.65 and has long arms, nearly 34 inches. Just like Watt last season I think he will excel in coverage and that size and length causes issues for QBs. When you have a normal, or smaller sized LB in coverage a QB has some leeway in fitting the ball into that window but when you have a Watt or LVE? It becomes more difficult because of their size and length, it is sort of like they have to worry about the catch radius of the defender.

Evans is just not the same athlete as LVE, he weighed almost 25 pounds less and yet managed only a 30 inch vertical, his 3 cone time was 6.95 which is not bad but not as good as LVE who, again is carrying 25 pounds more on his frame.

Imagine Evans trying to cover Gronk down the middle of the field. An obvious mismatch.

Then imagine a 6'4" LVE who has 34 inch arms and a vertical of 39.5 inches. Who do you think is more capable of covering Gronk, of forcing a contested catch? I know who I would want.

 

Evans is way more physical and will battle with Gronk.  LVE is soft as marshmallows. What games was Evans torched on?  What games can you lead me to see that LVE is a good pass coverage LB?  Also size is not  that important when it comes to coverage; leverage is more important.  

With bigger LBs in coverage, I worry about combo move routes.  Routes where a TE will run Angle routes or routes that don’t just go in a straight line will be difficult to cover for taller LBs.  

I still prefer Nick DeLuca over most of these MLBs especially to take on blockers.  He is a beast in the phone booth but last season he struggled with tackling. 

[warfelg]

15 minutes ago, Armsteeld2 said:

Evans is way more physical and will battle with Gronk.  LVE is soft as marshmallows. What games was Evans torched on?  What games can you lead me to see that LVE is a good pass coverage LB?  Also size is not  that important when it comes to coverage; leverage is more important.  

With bigger LBs in coverage, I worry about combo move routes.  Routes where a TE will run Angle routes or routes that don’t just go in a straight line will be difficult to cover for taller LBs.  

I still prefer Nick DeLuca over most of these MLBs especially to take on blockers.  He is a beast in the phone booth but last season he struggled with tackling. 

So well said.  And that's where the combine can tell you what you are seeing in the tape.  LVE struggled some in those drop drills.  He didn't open up his hips well, he struggled some to change directions while dropping, he didn't use his reach well trying to catch the ball, he needed to jump with his body to secure it.  Evans looked more fluid (to me), didn't chop to change directions, and when the pass was up there he snatched it a little easier.

Also key to remember with some of that Alabama's defense is built to keep the front 7 within 10 yards.  So those plays in the passing game where Evans get's "beat" even LVE would get "beat" because of the defensive scheme.  It's the same knock that was out there on CJ Mosley when he came out and he's been perfectly fine as a coverage guy.

[Armsteeld2]

This is what I want to see from LVE when squaring up vs an OL. Smith squares him up, sinks his hips and drives through Staley’s upper torso.  Staley outweighs Smith by almost 80 pounds but leverage, aggression, and power won this matchup.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Marcus_Mosher/status/978276592752369664/video/1

[jebrick]

40 minutes ago, Armsteeld2 said:

This is what I want to see from LVE when squaring up vs an OL. Smith squares him up, sinks his hips and drives through Staley’s upper torso.  Staley outweighs Smith by almost 80 pounds but leverage, aggression, and power won this matchup.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Marcus_Mosher/status/978276592752369664/video/1

Did you ever see Shazier square up to a lineman?  If not then why would you expect his replacement to do that.  Vince Williams is the Buck and that is his job.

Watch the Alabama CFP games and watch Evans in coverage.  He is not very good at it.  Watch LVE when he is asked to drop into coverage.  He is smooth and alert.  Neither are running with the receivers much unless it is a RB on a wheel route.

[Chieferific]

Evans' coverage skills is part of what I liked about him. I've seen him flip his bios and stay with a Slot WR. How are we seeing 2 different things?

[warfelg]

14 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

Evans' coverage skills is part of what I liked about him. I've seen him flip his bios and stay with a Slot WR. How are we seeing 2 different things?

I wish I had a fun name for it, but this is why the combine is a bad thing.  LVE tested well, so you start watching the tape differently to convince yourself that those things he tested well in are on the tape.  And the same goes the other way, Orlando Brown tested poorly, so you start watching the tape telling yourself there's no way he's good because of those numbers.  Combineitis (hey there we go) is what happens to fans way too easily where we look at this stuff the wrong way.

I'm sure @Armsteeld2 would 100% agree with this:

You watch that LVE tape, you see a guy lost in the trash, unable to shed blockers, needing to stay clean, not really trusted too much in coverage.  So you come to the expectation that he's not that fast, strong, twitchy, etc.  The combine comes around and he tests really high on SPARQ and looks ok in fluidity.  So you go back, watch the tape, and you look for how he uses all of that...and he doesn't.  So what that tells me is LVE doesn't know how to use his traits.  Can't get the leverage, doesn't see plays all that well.

On the other hand you watch Evans on tape, you see a guy that can stack and drive, a guy that moves well, and a system that doesn't put LB's in coverage.  So you think he'll be about average in testing, and he is.  Combine gives you average SPARQ, but looks fluid, and tests smart.  So going back and watching the tape, you realize that this is a guy that just knows how to use his gifts, and understands the leverage part of the game.

[jebrick]

Evans would be a wonderful LB in the 90s.  They still need a coverage LB.  Vince Williams is Haggens.  They need a Farrior who also did not stack and shed at 225 lbs.

 

I predict Orlando Brown will be Max Starks 2.0 but he tested less well than Max.  We shall see.

[warfelg]

Farrior absolutely stacked and shedded.  He was better than the bigger Larry Foote at it.

[MOSteelers56]

I’d be ok with LVE but not excited. I think he needs time to develop but if he finds his potential he could be freaky good. Evans would step in and contribute right away where I see LVE needing a year. LVE sort of reminds me of Shazier. He needs to learn and get a bit stronger but if he puts it together he’ll be one of the best. He covers and flies to the ball. He isn’t good when he’s blocked or sorting through trash. 

[Armsteeld2]

8 hours ago, warfelg said:

I wish I had a fun name for it, but this is why the combine is a bad thing.  LVE tested well, so you start watching the tape differently to convince yourself that those things he tested well in are on the tape.  And the same goes the other way, Orlando Brown tested poorly, so you start watching the tape telling yourself there's no way he's good because of those numbers.  Combineitis (hey there we go) is what happens to fans way too easily where we look at this stuff the wrong way.

I'm sure @Armsteeld2 would 100% agree with this:

You watch that LVE tape, you see a guy lost in the trash, unable to shed blockers, needing to stay clean, not really trusted too much in coverage.  So you come to the expectation that he's not that fast, strong, twitchy, etc.  The combine comes around and he tests really high on SPARQ and looks ok in fluidity.  So you go back, watch the tape, and you look for how he uses all of that...and he doesn't.  So what that tells me is LVE doesn't know how to use his traits.  Can't get the leverage, doesn't see plays all that well.

On the other hand you watch Evans on tape, you see a guy that can stack and drive, a guy that moves well, and a system that doesn't put LB's in coverage.  So you think he'll be about average in testing, and he is.  Combine gives you average SPARQ, but looks fluid, and tests smart.  So going back and watching the tape, you realize that this is a guy that just knows how to use his gifts, and understands the leverage part of the game.

Agreed.  Prior to the combine, few knew of LVE.  Either JPN or Jebrick brought most of the board aware of him.  He reminds me Bobby Carpenter who used to play for the Cowboys.  Beastly when kept clean but teams just kept body punching him and he became a situational player iirc.  LVE can be coached up but similar to my man crush a few years ago, Gerod Holliman, defenders must be willing to play the run as well as play the pass.

[Blitzburgh]

7 hours ago, warfelg said:

Farrior absolutely stacked and shedded.  He was better than the bigger Larry Foote at it.

Yes,  saying he didn’t is laughable.

[43M]

26 minutes ago, Armsteeld2 said:

Agreed.  Prior to the combine, few knew of LVE.  Either JPN or Jebrick brought most of the board aware of him.  He reminds me Bobby Carpenter who used to play for the Cowboys.  Beastly when kept clean but teams just kept body punching him and he became a situational player iirc.  LVE can be coached up but similar to my man crush a few years ago, Gerod Holliman, defenders must be willing to play the run as well as play the pass.

Reminds me of Stewart Bradley. And you could argue that Bradley could have been really good if not for injuries derailing his career, so I'm not saying that Vander esch can't be a good player, but again... It comes down to how much you're willing to bet on him becoming a good player. I just see too many flaws for me to be comfortable with using a first-round pick on him. It'd probably be similar to the Marcus Gilbert pick several years back. Would have loathed him in the first round, but I made peace with it in the second round.