Group Consensus Mock - Rd 2 Winner Jessie Bates

[warfelg]

SHOWING SIMILAR WEAKNESSES IS NOT COMPARING PLAYERS!!!!

Once you learn that can happen then you can really learn how to talk scouting.  If I had to come up with a good comp for Jessie Bates in the NFL it would be Tre Boston.  Solid overall safety.  Doesn't make as many plays as he should.  Weakness in the run game.

 

But what Mitchell and Bates share is a tendency to be out of position.  Bad angles.  Bad tackling form.  This is all stuff we ripped Mitchell for.  Sure Bates plays the ball better in the air and has better burst.  But what good is all of that if you broke the wrong direction?

[JPeezy55]

4 minutes ago, warfelg said:

That's exactly what you are doing though with Bates in the second.  I've seen far more evidence of him being a player ranked in the 80-100 range than the 30-60 range where most of you want him.  This happens almost every single year like clockwork.  A mid round prospect has a nice combine and some of y'all get super hyped about him and want him much earlier than where he should go.  Then when he goes in the 4th and we don't really hear from him or he does ok, there's little talk about him.

This team seems to be very content with 3 physical safeties who can both do FS/SS type stuff.  It's why I fully expect to see Morgan Burnett and Sean Davis as the starters day 1, and the only way they get supplanted is injury where they are massively outplayed.  

Bates is a gambling safety who trusts his eyes too much, over reacts to plays, tries to make up for it with athleticism.  That's fine in college when you aren't playing high quality players.  Watch games against some of the better NCAA teams and you will see a guy that was out of position, taking bad angles, shying from tackles, and over running plays.

I'm confused by this. What else are you supposed to trust?? As a ball hawking safety like he is, he has to trust his eyes and take chances (For the record I'm not a huge fan of his)

 

But as a safety, you trust your reads and your eyes.

When the QB pulls the pin on the ball, you have to break and read on your eyes

When the WR drops his hips to come out of his break, you have to drive on that route and trust your eyes

 

I would MUCH rather have a guy who trusts his eyes, and works on instinct, but makes a few mistakes. Rather than someone who is slow to react and is always a second or two late to plays. That is the difference between INT's and PBU's and completed passes.

Just my opinion 

[Alex]

1 minute ago, warfelg said:

SHOWING SIMILAR WEAKNESSES IS NOT COMPARING PLAYERS!!!!

Once you learn that can happen then you can really learn how to talk scouting.  If I had to come up with a good comp for Jessie Bates in the NFL it would be Tre Boston.  Solid overall safety.  Doesn't make as many plays as he should.  Weakness in the run game.

 

But what Mitchell and Bates share is a tendency to be out of position.  Bad angles.  Bad tackling form.  This is all stuff we ripped Mitchell for.  Sure Bates plays the ball better in the air and has better burst.  But what good is all of that if you broke the wrong direction?

I get what you are saying- that being said, the majority of the time last season what we saw from Mike Mitchell is that he can not chase down from 15 yards and I do think it's fair to agree that it's probably a bad idea to have our free safety chase down ball carriers 15 yards down because it means the front 7 already failed. It would be nice to have a Ryan Clark, we were fortunate- the point here though isn't the tackling game really. At least from what I'm seeing, it's the ball-hawking ability, Mitchell absolutely can't find the ball and in the deep, if we can't get somebody who can do it all, at least we can do is get somebody who we can trust playing the centerfielder and I see that in Jessie Bates. 

 

If we get him, it's because he can take away the deep ball that we have been struggling against. Just pray that we can do more with Evans (who I finally have warmed up to) and other players with the tackling. Also, the quarterback pressure.

[warfelg]

6 minutes ago, JPeezy55 said:

I don't understand why it seems like almost every single player has to be nitpicked to the core on here. I understand scouting and finding weaknesses....but come on, everyone has weaknesses. And thats not a direct shot at anyone, it just seems like its so hard for people to just look at a guys strengths and see that they out weight the weaknesses he may have 

I'll always lean on you got to know what weaknesses you can and can't improve on.  I care very little for concerns on bulk, hand placement, pre-snap reads, route running, zone v man.  That's stuff you can coach into a player.

Things like angles, overrunning plays, lack of burst, not playing with heavy hands, no mean streak, low desire, drugs, off field issues.....those are issues to nitpick because you can not coach that 99.9% of the time.  Player rarely suddenly learn to take better angles.  Rarely learn to suddenly stay at home.  Rarely learn to be a violent player, have heavy hands, or properly tackle.

One I got back to a few years ago....many on here love Johnny Manziel, even went as far to say Manziel made Mike Evans.  Evans issues were route running, and hand fighting at the line.  He's so much better at that now.  Manziels were partying, not knowing the playbook, unable to throw guys open.  Then just last week on the DPShow, Manziel said he was shocked to learn the Browns didn't know that Johnny never called a play, didn't understand offensive concepts, didn't study.  Those are things that don't change.  And if you watch the spring league....you still see all of that.

[warfelg]

10 minutes ago, JPeezy55 said:

I'm confused by this. What else are you supposed to trust?? As a ball hawking safety like he is, he has to trust his eyes and take chances (For the record I'm not a huge fan of his)

 

But as a safety, you trust your reads and your eyes.

When the QB pulls the pin on the ball, you have to break and read on your eyes

When the WR drops his hips to come out of his break, you have to drive on that route and trust your eyes

 

I would MUCH rather have a guy who trusts his eyes, and works on instinct, but makes a few mistakes. Rather than someone who is slow to react and is always a second or two late to plays. That is the difference between INT's and PBU's and completed passes.

Just my opinion 

Watch Earl Thomas.  He sits in the middle of the field and doesn't break until the QB opens his hips to a side.  He's reading the QB's body, along with understanding the offensive concepts.  Trusting the eyes too much means you react to every move the QB makes.  QB looks to my left, I break left trusting what I saw.  QB looks right, I break right.

So you hit something there.  Trusting reads, not eyes.  Trusting the read is what you are talking about.  WR dropped his hips and got heavy with his right foot.  He's breaking to my right.  That's not trusting your eyes.  That's trusting your read that your film study says that's what he does.

A great example of this is the Giants Safety (his name is escaping me).  He breaks very late because he's reading the play and trusting what he's reading.  He's not trusting what his eyes see right at any given moment.

Mitchell is a perfect example of a guy who trusts his eyes too much.  Bites on lots of PA plays.  Get's fooled on double moves.  When he was in zone you could flood his zone and like clockwork he would take the first guy there.

[warfelg]

14 minutes ago, Alex said:

I get what you are saying- that being said, the majority of the time last season what we saw from Mike Mitchell is that he can not chase down from 15 yards and I do think it's fair to agree that it's probably a bad idea to have our free safety chase down ball carriers 15 yards down because it means the front 7 already failed. It would be nice to have a Ryan Clark, we were fortunate- the point here though isn't the tackling game really. At least from what I'm seeing, it's the ball-hawking ability, Mitchell absolutely can't find the ball and in the deep, if we can't get somebody who can do it all, at least we can do is get somebody who we can trust playing the centerfielder and I see that in Jessie Bates. 

 

If we get him, it's because he can take away the deep ball that we have been struggling against. Just pray that we can do more with Evans (who I finally have warmed up to) and other players with the tackling. Also, the quarterback pressure.

Mitchell can't chase from 15 years because he's slow.  Ryan Clark was great because he had that burst, and he didn't overrun plays and react to what his eyes were seeing, rather reacted to what the read told him was happening.

FWIW We struggled with deep ball IMO more because of communication and preparation than anything else.

[JPeezy55]

4 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Watch Earl Thomas.  He sits in the middle of the field and doesn't break until the QB opens his hips to a side.  He's reading the QB's body, along with understanding the offensive concepts.  Trusting the eyes too much means you react to every move the QB makes.  QB looks to my left, I break left trusting what I saw.  QB looks right, I break right.

So you hit something there.  Trusting reads, not eyes.  Trusting the read is what you are talking about.  WR dropped his hips and got heavy with his right foot.  He's breaking to my right.  That's not trusting your eyes.  That's trusting your read that your film study says that's what he does.

A great example of this is the Giants Safety (his name is escaping me).  He breaks very late because he's reading the play and trusting what he's reading.  He's not trusting what his eyes see right at any given moment.

Mitchell is a perfect example of a guy who trusts his eyes too much.  Bites on lots of PA plays.  Get's fooled on double moves.  When he was in zone you could flood his zone and like clockwork he would take the first guy there.

I get what you're saying now. You and I have slightly different interpretations of trusting your eyes, but I understand your POV.

In my mind, trusting your eyes is just like trusting your read. When you see the hips drop, you are trusting your eyes that he is breaking. But I see how it can also be trusting your read.

To me, trusting your read is more, when the offense comes out 3x1, they have a good chance of running a certain combo pattern and trusting that to break on something. But yes you can definitely over trust your eyes 

Apples and Oranges

[Armsteeld2]

Time to submit round 3 prospects yet?

[warfelg]

5 minutes ago, Armsteeld2 said:

Time to submit round 3 prospects yet?

I put forward:

Quote

Lorenzo Carter OLB, BJ Hill NT, Rasheem Green DE, Carlton Davis CB, Equanimeous St. Brown WR, Jerome Baker OLB/DE, Dante Pettis WR, Trevon Young EDGE, Poona Ford NT

 

That would be my suggestions for the list at this point.

 

 

[Chieferific]

48 minutes ago, warfelg said:

SHOWING SIMILAR WEAKNESSES IS NOT COMPARING PLAYERS!!!!

Once you learn that can happen then you can really learn how to talk scouting.  If I had to come up with a good comp for Jessie Bates in the NFL it would be Tre Boston.  Solid overall safety.  Doesn't make as many plays as he should.  Weakness in the run game.

 

But what Mitchell and Bates share is a tendency to be out of position.  Bad angles.  Bad tackling form.  This is all stuff we ripped Mitchell for.  Sure Bates plays the ball better in the air and has better burst.  But what good is all of that if you broke the wrong direction?

I guess it's semantics but it seems like if you're comparing weaknesses then you are comparing the player. BTW, I don't agree with some of the compared weaknesses. 

[AFF]

19 minutes ago, Armsteeld2 said:

Time to submit round 3 prospects yet?

Steelers have had pre draft visits for like 6 outta their last 8 3rd rounders....I’d start looking at their pre draft visitors in that range....CB Dawson...OT Oneil...LB O’Daniel....LB Carter...LB Jerome Baker are a few.

[kurgan]

Took out FS and ILB guys.  Left a couple of SS types in case we want to double dip. 

 

Rashaad Penny [ RB ] San Diego St
Jeff Holland [ EDGE ] Auburn
Equanimeous St. Brown [ WR ] Notre Dame
Michael Gallup [ WR ] Colorado St.
Dorrance Armstrong [ EDGE ] Kansas
Ian Thomas [ TE ] Indiana
Kerryon Johnson [ RB ] Auburn
Terrell Edmunds [ SS ] Virginia Tech
Derrick Nnadi [ DT ] Florida St.
Dante Pettis [ WR ] Washington
Cedrick Wilson [ WR ] Boise St.
Marcus Allen [ FS ] Penn St.
Kalen Ballage [ RB ] Arizona St.

Anthony Averett [ CB ] Alabama
Troy Fumagalli [ TE ] Wisconsin
Will Richardson [ OT ] NC State
Tegray Scales [ LB ] Indiana
 Da'Shawn Hand [ DE/DT ] Alabama
Dalton Schultz [ TE ] Stanford
Tyquan Lewis [ EDGE ] Ohio St.
Tre’Quan Smith [ WR ] UCF
Wyatt Teller [ OG ] Va. Tech
 Isaac Yiadom [ CB ] Boston College
 Alex Cappa [ OT ] HUMBOLDT STATE
Mark Walton [ RB ] Miami (Fla.)
Shaquem Griffin [ LB ] UCF
Colby Gossett [ OG ] Appalachian St.

Foley Fatukasi [ DT ] UConn

Andrew Brown [DT/DE] Virginia

[Armsteeld2]

4 minutes ago, kurgan said:

Took out FS and ILB guys.  Left a couple of SS types in case we want to double dip. 

 

Rashaad Penny [ RB ] San Diego St
Jeff Holland [ EDGE ] Auburn
Equanimeous St. Brown [ WR ] Notre Dame
Michael Gallup [ WR ] Colorado St.
Dorrance Armstrong [ EDGE ] Kansas
Ian Thomas [ TE ] Indiana
Kerryon Johnson [ RB ] Auburn
Terrell Edmunds [ SS ] Virginia Tech
Derrick Nnadi [ DT ] Florida St.
Dante Pettis [ WR ] Washington
Cedrick Wilson [ WR ] Boise St.
Marcus Allen [ FS ] Penn St.
Kalen Ballage [ RB ] Arizona St.

Anthony Averett [ CB ] Alabama
Troy Fumagalli [ TE ] Wisconsin
Will Richardson [ OT ] NC State
Tegray Scales [ LB ] Indiana
 Da'Shawn Hand [ DE/DT ] Alabama
Dalton Schultz [ TE ] Stanford
Tyquan Lewis [ EDGE ] Ohio St.
Tre’Quan Smith [ WR ] UCF
Wyatt Teller [ OG ] Va. Tech
 Isaac Yiadom [ CB ] Boston College
 Alex Cappa [ OT ] HUMBOLDT STATE
Mark Walton [ RB ] Miami (Fla.)
Shaquem Griffin [ LB ] UCF
Colby Gossett [ OG ] Appalachian St.

Foley Fatukasi [ DT ] UConn

Andrew Brown [DT/DE] Virginia

I co-sign this list.  Solid.

[jebrick]

I think they can only have 20

IMHO

Rashaad Penny [ RB ] San Diego St
Jeff Holland [ EDGE ] Auburn
Equanimeous St. Brown [ WR ] Notre Dame
Michael Gallup [ WR ] Colorado St.
Dorrance Armstrong [ EDGE ] Kansas

Kerryon Johnson [ RB ] Auburn

 James Washington, WR, Oklahoma State < - If we have EstB on the list then Washington must be there as they have shown interest and both are in the same range.
Cedrick Wilson [ WR ] Boise St.

Anthony Averett [ CB ] Alabama
Tegray Scales [ LB ] Indiana
 Da'Shawn Hand [ DE/DT ] Alabama
Dalton Schultz [ TE ] Stanford
Tyquan Lewis [ EDGE ] Ohio St.
Tre’Quan Smith [ WR ] UCF
Wyatt Teller [ OG ] Va. Tech
 Isaac Yiadom [ CB ] Boston College

Shaquem Griffin [ LB ] UCF

Foley Fatukasi [ DT ] UConn

Ian Thomas [ TE ] Indiana

Mark Walton [ RB ] Miami (Fla.)

[kurgan]

13 minutes ago, jebrick said:

I think they can only have 20

 

 James Washington, WR, Oklahoma State < - If we have EstB on the list then Washington must be there as they have shown interest and both are in the same range.

 

My bad... gotta a little carried away there.

I disagree that Washington will still be here.  Probably St. Brown too, on reflection.