Mark Davis not happy with Reggie(R1trade down)

[Frankie2Gunz]

3 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Bottom line, they should have gotten more. Miami was selecting next. Arizona was desperate for a franchise QB and knew this was there guy. Compared to other trades that happened in round 1, this was a head scratcher.

Oakland had all the leverage. The argument if "got there guy, plus the 3rd they wanted for Bryant is lazy". The goal should be to get the best deal possible and pretty sure they could have gotten a 2 or a 1 next year. 

Either way... is what it is. Nobody will care if Miller is a stud.

Bottom line is they didn't.  Like I said before this is all media nonsense.  We have no idea if Miami coveted Rosen, we also have no clue if Rosen was "Arizonas guy'.  For all we know maybe he was only worth the risk if they were giving up a 3rd rounder, they may have been willing to stay at 15 and see if Rosen would slip to them.  We have no clue where they had him ranked or what their board looked like.  I would hardly make the assumption that Rosen is a franchise QB and teams were beating down the doors to draft him.   I am sure you have read up on all of his character concerns and red flags.  

It could be worse, we could have stayed at 10 and taken Miller or if SF passed on McGlinchy we would have stayed and taken him according to media garbage.  I would be way more pissed if either of those scenarios occurred.  

Instead of focusing on "a hypothetical 2nd round pick" who has never taken an NFL snap think about what we did walk away with from the trade.  This trade netted us Miller, (who knows what we got in him) Bryant, (a proven top shelf WR with some red flags and if he plays like I think he will you'll not even question this trade in 1 year)  and the ability to trade up for Hurst.  Don't buy the media nonsense and think for yourself.  A ton of unknowns here and we walked away with some good talent because of this trade.  

[TiberiusRising]

15 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Bottom line, they should have gotten more. Miami was selecting next. Arizona was desperate for a franchise QB and knew this was there guy. Compared to other trades that happened in round 1, this was a head scratcher.

Oakland had all the leverage. The argument if "got there guy, plus the 3rd they wanted for Bryant is lazy". The goal should be to get the best deal possible and pretty sure they could have gotten a 2 or a 1 next year. 

Either way... is what it is. Nobody will care if Miller is a stud.

True did seem very odd. Personally I think anytime you target a specific guy outside of a generational player you are bound to get less "value" since you already see the player as more valuable than anyone else. This is the real thing I think needs to be addressed between Reggie and Gruden. To be a fly on that wall. 

 

Gruden said he was on the phone making deals why Reggie was on the other phone making other deals. For all we know Gruden accepted this trade before the pick was even up. Or the opposite. However knowing how much Reggie value's draft picks it would be a strange move unless his hands were tied. Although it was a horrible draft year we only got a 2nd from Miami a few years back to move down to 12 from 3. That for me was a harder value to swallow at the time but seeing as hardly anyone from that years draft class has panned out it doesnt seem as bad now. So despite Reggie's MO he has had instances of this occur before. 

[big_palooka]

17 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

Bottom line is they didn't.  Like I said before this is all media nonsense.  We have no idea if Miami coveted Rosen, we also have no clue if Rosen was "Arizonas guy'.  For all we know maybe he was only worth the risk if they were giving up a 3rd rounder, they may have been willing to stay at 15 and see if Rosen would slip to them.  We have no clue where they had him ranked or what their board looked like.  I would hardly make the assumption that Rosen is a franchise QB and teams were beating down the doors to draft him.   I am sure you have read up on all of his character concerns and red flags.  

It could be worse, we could have stayed at 10 and taken Miller or if SF passed on McGlinchy we would have stayed and taken him according to media garbage.  I would be way more pissed if either of those scenarios occurred.  

Instead of focusing on "a hypothetical 2nd round pick" who has never taken an NFL snap think about what we did walk away with from the trade.  This trade netted us Miller, (who knows what we got in him) Bryant, (a proven top shelf WR with some red flags and if he plays like I think he will you'll not even question this trade in 1 year)  and the ability to trade up for Hurst.  Don't buy the media nonsense and think for yourself.  A ton of unknowns here and we walked away with some good talent because of this trade.  

Thank you... I am "thinking for myself"

I think we can surmise that if AZ was trading up, it was because they 1) wanted a QB and 2) expected Miami to take him at 11. 

It could be worse, yes. It could also be better..... I am well aware of what the trade netted the team. But you can't stand there and say it was great value in comparison. The Bucs got 2 second round picks to move from 12 to 8 for their QB just moments earlier. The Jets gave up 2 seconds and a second in 2019 to move up from 6 to 3. That was the benchmark for the Raiders transactions. 

So yeah.... "thinking for myself"......... If I see the market value is multiple second round picks for teams moving up 3-4 spots for a QB they covet and I have a top 10 selection, I expect a 2nd round pick in that package, period. Either in 2018 or 2019. 

This trade reeked of having tunnel vision on 1 idea (draft Miller get Bryant) and they traded low as a result.

[SBXISBXVSBXVIII]

Let’s be honest here. Haters only think the trade sucked because Miller was the pick. If James or Edmunds had been the pick, the hater’s reaction would have been “Reggie is a genius, he traded back and still got one of the defensive studs and two extra picks. What an amazing trade.” 

[Chali21]

30 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Thank you... I am "thinking for myself"

I think we can surmise that if AZ was trading up, it was because they 1) wanted a QB and 2) expected Miami to take him at 11. 

It could be worse, yes. It could also be better..... I am well aware of what the trade netted the team. But you can't stand there and say it was great value in comparison. The Bucs got 2 second round picks to move from 12 to 8 for their QB just moments earlier. The Jets gave up 2 seconds and a second in 2019 to move up from 6 to 3. That was the benchmark for the Raiders transactions. 

So yeah.... "thinking for myself"......... If I see the market value is multiple second round picks for teams moving up 3-4 spots for a QB they covet and I have a top 10 selection, I expect a 2nd round pick in that package, period. Either in 2018 or 2019. 

This trade reeked of having tunnel vision on 1 idea (draft Miller get Bryant) and they traded low as a result.

I think we are missing on supply and demand. The demand for Rosen wasn’t as high as say the Jets or the Bills moving up. The Cards have Bradford whose a much better QB than what NY or Buff have. There’s a lot of pressure on those teams by their fanbases to get a QB so of course they’d over pay to ensure they get their guy. From what I’ve seen this offseason there aren’t many teams high on Rosen, to me it sounds like the Cards valued him with a 3rd and 5th.  who knows if the deal would have gotten done if the Raiders countered with asking for a second. Also Kiem just got a contract extension and I think the owner likes him quite a bit. 

[big_palooka]

2 hours ago, SBXISBXVSBXVIII said:

Let’s be honest here. Haters only think the trade sucked because Miller was the pick. If James or Edmunds had been the pick, the hater’s reaction would have been “Reggie is a genius, he traded back and still got one of the defensive studs and two extra picks. What an amazing trade.” 

I'm not a hater. I thought the trade lacked value when it was made. Not getting a second or something in the future was eyebrow raising even for people who do this stuff for a living. 

[big_palooka]

2 hours ago, Chali21 said:

I think we are missing on supply and demand. The demand for Rosen wasn’t as high as say the Jets or the Bills moving up. The Cards have Bradford whose a much better QB than what NY or Buff have. There’s a lot of pressure on those teams by their fanbases to get a QB so of course they’d over pay to ensure they get their guy. From what I’ve seen this offseason there aren’t many teams high on Rosen, to me it sounds like the Cards valued him with a 3rd and 5th.  who knows if the deal would have gotten done if the Raiders countered with asking for a second. Also Kiem just got a contract extension and I think the owner likes him quite a bit. 

Let's agree to disagree. We will never know if Reggie asked for more or not. If he didn't, it was an error. If he did....and AZ balked at it, then that's a different story.

Fact is, AZ was hot on Rosen. They were rumored to want to move up for a QB leading up to the draft. Heck.... half the people mocking Raider drafts used them as a trade partner. 

My guess.... Gruden wanted Bryant and needed a 3rd to make it happen. Reggie got a 3rd so everyone was happy. Didn't press their luck

[SilverNBlackFan]

The apologists will defend the trade down, but this makes twice now under  Reggie we have traded out the top ten and received less than stellar compensation. 

There were four QBs to go in the top ten. Freaking four. And we let Arizona dictate the terms to us. We should have at least gotten a second. 

[Geezy]

Cant lie, I was expecting a 2 and 4 when the trade was announced. Not mad how it ended up, but I feel like Reggie hasn't really been getting value on his trades. End of the day, I'm excited about this draft class, I think we added a few pieces to the foundation of this roster.

[Frankie2Gunz]

10 hours ago, SBXISBXVSBXVIII said:

Let’s be honest here. Haters only think the trade sucked because Miller was the pick. If James or Edmunds had been the pick, the hater’s reaction would have been “Reggie is a genius, he traded back and still got one of the defensive studs and two extra picks. What an amazing trade.” 

If RM would have traded back and drafted Hurst in the first most homers on here would be thrilled.  It's actually comical reading some of the logic posted here. 

[daineraider]

31 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

If RM would have traded back and drafted Hurst in the first most homers on here would be thrilled.  It's actually comical reading some of the logic posted here. 

So are those that like the Miller pick the only ones that are logical?  A lot of us(including most national media outlets) didn’t like the pick or the value of the trade.  I haven’t liked many of Reggie’s draft picks outside of 2014.  Look at 2013 and tell me where we were wrong in wanting Star or Richardson or any # of picks since then.  Go through all the draft threads and you’ll see those that questioned many of his picks look much better than those picks do now.

[Silver&Black88]

9 hours ago, big_palooka said:

I'm not a hater. I thought the trade lacked value when it was made. Not getting a second or something in the future was eyebrow raising even for people who do this stuff for a living. 

I mean.  First of all: this^

Second of all, would that be so wrong? You're damn right part of why I didn't like the trade was that we got Miller.  We had Minkah Fitzpatrick staring us in the face AND we have his DB coach on our staff.   The trade is one-track mindedness at its finest. It sucks getting jerked around by how the draft fell (kinda seems like we were unprepared for this) and drafting 100% need-based.

In the end we can sit here and talk about good ole Kolton and whether he'll pan out or not until we're blue in the face but the bottom line is: we should have had AZ by the balls. No. I don't like Miller (or where we took him) but we're stuck with him for better or worse. Better compensation sure as hell would have made the pill go down easier though.

[Frankie2Gunz]

11 hours ago, daineraider said:

So are those that like the Miller pick the only ones that are logical?  A lot of us(including most national media outlets) didn’t like the pick or the value of the trade.  I haven’t liked many of Reggie’s draft picks outside of 2014.  Look at 2013 and tell me where we were wrong in wanting Star or Richardson or any # of picks since then.  Go through all the draft threads and you’ll see those that questioned many of his picks look much better than those picks do now.

First I try not to pay attention to what the media thinks or cares about.  They have an agenda and they wan't to come off as "experts".  The more incorrect their mocks are the more worthless they seem. 

I agree when I first heard the compensation for our trade back I was disappointed.  Once everything played out I could see the big picture.  People want to focus on players that we could have had but one must understand that LT is a premium position and really good, young LT rarely hit FA and if they do they get paid top dollar.  That is why we doubled up on the position but the media can't grasp that concept.  Protecting our franchise Qb has to be priority number 1 especially in the AFC West.  We are not in any financial position to pay a FA quality LT with the contracts we have in place or are about to have added to our books.  Football is a business with a salary cap which unfortunately makes it not just as simple as drafting someone.

Lets say we stayed at 10 and took Fitz, I see someone brought him up in another post.  Fitz doesn't have a defined position which is good and bad.  Yes he's versatile and that has value but none of the positions he will play are a premium position such as LT. 

Lets use Mathieu in comparison to Fitz because he is versatile and plays multiple positions at a high level.  He was cut from Zona, if he was a LT that would most certainly not happen because is 25, has been a very good/ pro bowl player since he came into the league.  He hit the FA market and teams weren't beating down doors to sign him.  He signed a 1 year, 7 million dollar contract with Houston.  Let's say a 25yo former pro bowl LT with pedigree like Mathieu hit FA he would command a massive contract, certainly more than 1 year at 7mil.    

If Miller pans out and becomes a top 12 LT in 2019 we will have made an excellent move.  We will have a very good LT under contract for 4 years at a very reasonable price.  Same goes for Parker, if he can step in and become a very good starting RT our Oline will be set for the foreseeable future. 

I will say that both Miller and Parker are coming into very good situations and if they fail it will be on them.  The core of our Oline is one of the best in the NFL so they both wont be playing next to scrubs.  Having a QB like Carr and playing next KO Jackson has extended Penn's career.  Let's be honest he is an average LT who has flourished playing next to some of the best guards in the game which makes his job a whole lot easier.  

[G]

1 hour ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

First I try not to pay attention to what the media thinks or cares about.  They have an agenda and they wan't to come off as "experts".  

 

Lets use Mathieu in comparison to Fitz because he is versatile and plays multiple positions at a high level.  He was cut from Zona, if he was a LT that would most certainly not happen because is 25, has been a very good/ pro bowl player since he came into the league.  He hit the FA market and teams weren't beating down doors to sign him.  He signed a 1 year, 7 million dollar contract with Houston.  Let's say a 25yo former pro bowl LT with pedigree like Mathieu hit FA he would command a massive contract, certainly more than 1 year at 7mil.    

 

We all have an agenda my 6'3+ WR friend...

SIZE MATTERS!!!

Now Mathieu is undersized for his position. If the LT was 6'3 like Beachum then 7 million is what I'd expect him to get after being cut. Doggy was all over Wynn and honestly I might have liked that pick better over Miller as Wynn has had a great career and Miller just came on at the end. I'm also worried at 6'9 he's too tall and will have knee issues as most big men do at that height. Getting more value and then trading back up would have been better. I think you like the pick because it got us a 6'3+WR... 

In hindsight, I'm cool with how it all played out. Mostly because of the later picks as the first 3 had me banging my head instead of scratching it. 

[808sinfour4time]

On 5/4/2018 at 8:50 AM, Frankie2Gunz said:

Bottom line is they didn't.  Like I said before this is all media nonsense.  We have no idea if Miami coveted Rosen, we also have no clue if Rosen was "Arizonas guy'.  For all we know maybe he was only worth the risk if they were giving up a 3rd rounder, they may have been willing to stay at 15 and see if Rosen would slip to them.  We have no clue where they had him ranked or what their board looked like.  I would hardly make the assumption that Rosen is a franchise QB and teams were beating down the doors to draft him.   I am sure you have read up on all of his character concerns and red flags.  

It could be worse, we could have stayed at 10 and taken Miller or if SF passed on McGlinchy we would have stayed and taken him according to media garbage.  I would be way more pissed if either of those scenarios occurred.  

Instead of focusing on "a hypothetical 2nd round pick" who has never taken an NFL snap think about what we did walk away with from the trade.  This trade netted us Miller, (who knows what we got in him) Bryant, (a proven top shelf WR with some red flags and if he plays like I think he will you'll not even question this trade in 1 year)  and the ability to trade up for Hurst.  Don't buy the media nonsense and think for yourself.  A ton of unknowns here and we walked away with some good talent because of this trade.  

A skilled negotiator acknowledges what he doesn't know, but realizes when his counter--party lacks the same information. Then he tries to use what he does know ("they're on the phone" and "need a QB") to create a potentially exploitable information asymmetry . 

Now that doesn't necessarily mean the Raiders should have gotten a second in this instance.  It just means "we don't know what the Dolphins really wanted" isn't a great explanation for how the Raiders should have behaved here vis-a-vis the Cardinals.