El Ramster Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 13 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said: OK we're just making things up and/or disregarding evidence now. Done guys. Enjoy this one @EliteTexan80 I just posted a Video by PFF. What evidence wtf are you talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Ramster Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Jakuvious said: PFF has changed how they scale grades since 2014. Its no longer possible in their grading system to top 100.0, so the grade's in the image you quoted are presumably what they scaled his grades down to in those years when they changed how they present the grades. Though, like all things PFF, there's at least a little bit of non-sense in that process. Watt graded higher in raw grade in 2014 than 2013, but his scaled grade in 2014 wound up worse than 2013, because reasons. I’ve never liked a post in this site. Might be the first one ever. Hold that thought doe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp6488 Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 The notion that Clowney isn't one of the top athletes in the league (at the EDGE, specifically) is just... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 PFF need to get their house in order then. They've also said this "Watt at his best is the best player in the game, and utterly dominant as both a pass-rusher and run defender playing inside and on the edge for the Houston defense. He has notched 440 total pressures over his NFL career and 319 defensive stops, and has the PFF record for total pressures over a season, with a ludicrous 119 in 2014." Might tweet the lunatics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 On 6/15/2018 at 5:09 AM, Yin-Yang said: But there’s also this... He doesn't. Mack puts tackles on their *** routinely and he's been doing it for 4 years. I've seen him drive double and triple teams back consistently. I'll take his power all day over Clowney's, or any other edge player in the league for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 3 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said: He doesn't. Mack puts tackles on their *** routinely and he's been doing it for 4 years. I've seen him drive double and triple teams back consistently. I'll take his power all day over Clowney's, or any other edge player in the league for that matter. I’ll let the hyperbole go... Your silver & black shades are apparent if you think Clowney and Mack aren’t at least comparably strong players. Mack’s bend and hand usage is superior at this point for sure. He’s a better pass rusher. Raw strength, though? Toss up, if not in Clowney’s favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 2 hours ago, Yin-Yang said: I’ll let the hyperbole go... Your silver & black shades are apparent if you think Clowney and Mack aren’t at least comparably strong players. Mack’s bend and hand usage is superior at this point for sure. He’s a better pass rusher. Raw strength, though? Toss up, if not in Clowney’s favor. 1 It's not hyperbole. I've watched every snap of Mack as a player. He's the most powerful edge player in the NFL. He handles double teams very well. His sack on Cam was a double team and a chip block, where he drove both guys back, disengaged and then got the sack to end the game. I've seen him literally run guys over. That's not homerism. That's literally what he's doing. Ask anyone in FF who has the best bull rush in the NFL? The best long arm in the NFL? It's Mack no question. It's not outlandish at all to think Mack is a more powerful guy than Clowney. Nowhere did I say it isn't close. I just said he's stronger IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 29 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: It's not hyperbole. It is hyperbole. It’s a constant overstatement that people make. No one in the NFL sees a double/triple team at a consistently high rate. Even Watt in his prime seasons was double/triple teamed for only slightly above half of his snaps. And that’s playing on the interior primarily. 29 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: I've watched every snap of Mack as a player. He's the most powerful edge player in the NFL. He handles double teams very well. He and Clowney are at least comparable. Handling double teams well sometimes doesn’t change that. 29 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: His sack on Cam was a double team and a chip block, where he drove both guys back, disengaged and then got the sack to end the game. Homer or bad memory? He was blocked by the RT alone. He beat the RT. The RG’s first contact with Mack was after Mack beat the RT and only to his back. It wasn’t a double team. The running back didn’t even touch Mack on that play. 29 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: I've seen him literally run guys over. That's not homerism. That's literally what he's doing. Like, totes literally? 29 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: Ask anyone in FF who has the best bull rush in the NFL? The best long arm in the NFL? It's Mack no question. Bull rush=/=strength, necessarily. I already said Mack was the better pass rusher, so it really isn’t a stretch that he’s a better bull rusher. James Harrison has probably been one of the strongest linebackers/edge players in the league for years now - see how that translates to his recent bull rush/pass rush production... 29 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: It's not outlandish at all to think Mack is a more powerful guy than Clowney. Nowhere did I say it isn't close. I just said he's stronger IMO. I don’t see anyone on the edge really ragdolling people or creating big hits as Clowney does. Mack’s great, he’s more refined and is about as strong as anybody. Just the way Clowney played last year - it was as if the linemen were children at times. Even then, the contact created after beating the protection is pretty unreal for a defensive linemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Yin-Yang said: It is hyperbole. It’s a constant overstatement that people make. No one in the NFL sees a double/triple team at a consistently high rate. Even Watt in his prime seasons was double/triple teamed for only slightly above half of his snaps. And that’s playing on the interior primarily. He and Clowney are at least comparable. Handling double teams well sometimes doesn’t change that. Homer or bad memory? He was blocked by the RT alone. He beat the RT. The RG’s first contact with Mack was after Mack beat the RT and only to his back. It wasn’t a double team. The running back didn’t even touch Mack on that play. Like, totes literally? Bull rush=/=strength, necessarily. I already said Mack was the better pass rusher, so it really isn’t a stretch that he’s a better bull rusher. James Harrison has probably been one of the strongest linebackers/edge players in the league for years now - see how that translates to his recent bull rush/pass rush production... I don’t see anyone on the edge really ragdolling people or creating big hits as Clowney does. Mack’s great, he’s more refined and is about as strong as anybody. Just the way Clowney played last year - it was as if the linemen were children at times. Even then, the contact created after beating the protection is pretty unreal for a defensive linemen. 2 I will find and show you numerous examples of Mack doing the same thing. If you don't believe me. When I said Macks power, or Von's speed, I was referring to them in the context of an edge player, not some raw trait. You also don't understand that in the context of Mack's edge role, he didn't have the ability to crash down on blocks the way Clowney was able to sometimes when he was shooting upfield. Not a slight against clowney as much as a difference in the way they were used at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 I seem to be the only neutral here. So I get to cast the final tie-breakers. Watt over Donald overall, Mack over Clowney overall but Clowney is quite obviously at least as strong when it comes to outright bull rush, push. Thanks for coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 9 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said: I seem to be the only neutral here. So I get to cast the final tie-breakers. Watt over Donald overall, Mack over Clowney overall but Clowney is quite obviously at least as strong when it comes to outright bull rush, push. Thanks for coming. Annnd, here's Tyron Smith: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 14 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said: I will find and show you numerous examples of Mack doing the same thing. If you don't believe me. When I said Macks power, or Von's speed, I was referring to them in the context of an edge player, not some raw trait. You also don't understand that in the context of Mack's edge role, he didn't have the ability to crash down on blocks the way Clowney was able to sometimes when he was shooting upfield. Not a slight against clowney as much as a difference in the way they were used at times. So, no response to the lie/bad memory of the Panthers sack? Or the double/triple team hyperbole? Or strength=/=bull rush? I've watched Mack and Clowney play, I don't need gifs. I can post a bunch of gifs of Clowney laying big hits behind the LOS (something he does better than Mack), but it wouldn't convince you anymore than gifs of Mack bull rushing convinces me. I know Mack is strong and is great at bull rushing. It's just as far as edge guys go, you'd be hard pressed to find someone stronger than Clowney (not including guys who can do both, like Calais or Watt). Justin Houston is in this conversation too, but I'm not totally confident that the injuries haven't taken a toll on his body at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 Gifs are never useful in an argument. I mean, they could be, but they're never really applied in an unbiased manner. You can take a few of the best or worst plays of almost any player in the NFL and cast them in damn near whatever light you want to. It's also worth mentioning that three of those plays were guys playing out of position. Ryan Harris (RT playing LT), Tim Lelito (G playing LT), and Kyle Long (G playing RT.) When an offensive linemen gets run over or humiliated like that, it's rarely a matter of the strength of the defensive player, and far more often the leverage, balance, and technique of the offensive player. Which is why his highlight against Tyron Smith just involves Smith getting shoved to the side a little bit, while his highlight against the bad/out of position players involve them falling on their ***. I don't really have a dog in this fight, both Mack and Clowney are very strong players, and in particular they're good at using leverage and converting speed to power to make themselves stronger than they actually are from a pure upper body strength perspective. I think Clowney is probably actually a bit stronger, but Mack is a much more refined player so he's better able to maximize and implement his power. But again, both are plenty strong. Regardless though, gifs are always a bad argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Yin-Yang said: So, no response to the lie/bad memory of the Panthers sack? Or the double/triple team hyperbole? Or strength=/=bull rush? I've watched Mack and Clowney play, I don't need gifs. I can post a bunch of gifs of Clowney laying big hits behind the LOS (something he does better than Mack), but it wouldn't convince you anymore than gifs of Mack bull rushing convinces me. I know Mack is strong and is great at bull rushing. It's just as far as edge guys go, you'd be hard pressed to find someone stronger than Clowney (not including guys who can do both, like Calais or Watt). Justin Houston is in this conversation too, but I'm not totally confident that the injuries haven't taken a toll on his body at this point. 2 Post them. I don't mind. Also, laying a big hit has nothing to do with strength. Powering through a guy on a bull rush has a ton to do with strength. A 220lb safety can lay a big hit, but a 220lb safety can't bull rush or shove a tackle out of the way. Because they're not strong enough. Strength has far more to do with being able to drive someone back (i.e. bull rushing) than it does laying a big hit. That's not an opinion. THat's common knowledge. Karl Joseph is 200 pounds and he hits way harder than mack. Mack is far and away stronger. I just showed you mack literally throwing people off their feet. That play against the Saints was a run play and he absolutely destroyed it. That's not hyperbole. Those are concrete examples of him tossing offensive lineman. Why don't you show me gif's if you're so convinced. 2 guys were assigned to Mack on the play and a third came to help. He gets double teamed as much as anybody in the league with a few exceptions at the most and I've seen him tripled before as well, as the raiders lack impact players on the DL. I didn't say every play, you're creating a narrative with this hyperbole. If you want to see how he handles a triple team, I have a great play versus the titans where he holds his own very well, but I need to cut up the gif. I haven't seen a shred of evidence that he's stronger. You're just giving your own opinion at this point. You even admit Mack's the better player and a GREAT bull rusher, you just can't help but hold on to this one thing. Mack won DPOY and has been rated by PFF as the 1st or 2nd edge rusher against the run for a number of years by winning with mainly power. He's known for dominating with power and he's shown that as a rusher and against the run. At this point, there's nothing I can say to convince you so I'll let it go, but it has nothing to do with homerism. You think Von Miller, you think speed and agility. You think mack, you think brute force and overpowering offensive lineman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 26 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: Post them. I don't mind. Waste of time, honestly. Gifs aren’t representative of much. I can post 4 gifs and make Mack look like a JAG and then post 4 gifs to make Ted Ginn look like a GOAT. Quote Also, laying a big hit has nothing to do with strength. A 220lb safety can lay a big hit. Doesn't mean they're super strong. Again, this has to do with the consistency. What separates Kam Chancellor from the rest? His ability to absorb contact from blockers, maintain his positioning, beat them, and lay big hits. And do it consistently in those situations. Patrick Chung has done it before, but not nearly enough. That’s what makes Kam great at it. Clowney does that but doesn’t have the benefit of getting a running start the way a DB or off LOS linebacker would. You’re joking if you think a guy’s hitting power has nothing to do with strength. Quote I just showed you mack literally throwing people off their feet. That's not hyperbole. Those are concrete examples of him tossing offensive lineman. Why don't you show me if you're so convinced. Dude...go read the posts. I said it’s hyperbole to say Mack gets consistently double/triple teamed, let alone beats them consistently. Youre reading and interpretting what you want to at this point. (I’m convinced people overusing “literally” is the source of my blood pressure...) Quote 2 guys were assigned to Mack on the play and a third came to help. Wrong. Watch the play. Mack takes the RT on solo, the RG doubles the DT with the C, then realizes the RT is beat and puts a hand on Mack’s back shoulder after the RT’s already been shed. Payne doesn’t even touch Mack. I’ll attribute it to bad memory. In fact, here you go: https://youtu.be/6_t-zuQSpuc At 1:17 play it back slow if you need to. Quote He gets double teamed as much as anybody in the league and I've seen him tripled before as well, as the raiders lack impact players on the DL. I didn't say every play, you're creating a narrative with this hyperbole. If you want to see how he handles a triple team, I have a great play versus the titans where he holds his own very well, but I need to cut up the gif. Seriously...don’t waste your time. I know he has seen triples teams. He’s even beaten them a few times. Neither of those things happen *consistently*. Hence the hyperbole. You’re the one who said it consistently happens, that’s your narrative. Quote I haven't seen a shred of evidence that he's stronger. You're just giving your own opinion at this point. If I posted 4 gifs of Clowney bullying linemen, would that suddenly sway your opinion? Quote You even admit Mack's the better player and a GREAT bull rusher, you just can't help but hold on to this one thing. Mack won DPOY and has been rated by PFF as the 1st or 2nd edge rusher against the run for a number of years by winning with mainly power. He's known for dominating with power and he's shown that as a rusher and against the run. So Clowney can’t be stronger because Mack is a better pass rusher? He could be the MVP with 30 sacks/year and not be the strongest guy at his position. I think you’re confusing accolades with strength. Quote At this point, there's nothing I can say to convince you so I'll let it go, but it has nothing to do with homerism. You think Von Miller, you think speed and agility. You think mack, you think brute force and overpowering offensive lineman. So you think Mack, you think “brute force and overpowering offensive linemen”, so I have to as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.