Most complete back in NFL history

[khaosoy]

On 5/31/2018 at 12:18 PM, sammymvpknight said:

The best that I have seen? Easily LT. 

But who was the best all-around RB ever? The answer is still Jim Brown. Even if he couldnt catch...I’d still say he was the best choice because we was easily the most dominant runner ever. And I suspect that he could have been a good receiver if it was en Vogue back then. Again...we are talking about the football equivalent of Wilt Chamberlain...he was just a man among boys. 

I think the Wilt Chamberlain of RBs is Jim Brown by a wide margin. Payton dominated because he was one of the most natural runners of all time and while he had some physical dominance, it was nothing like what Jim Brown possessed. I don't think there was a single player who was on Brown's level physically at that time, he was the epitome of an athletic freak whereas in Payton's case there were quite a few like Ronnie Lott, Lawrence Taylor, Reggie White, Bruce Smith, and Leroy Selmon.

As far as the topic in general, I think you got to give to Walter Payton. His receiving stats are comparable to LTs but he did it well before it became popular to be a dual-threat at the position. Payton was also THE weapon on those Bears teams so defenses were often focused on only stopping him and he was able to produce like he did which was amazing. He often gets overshadowed by the electricity that Barry Sanders brought to the game but if I had to take 1 RB in history to be the centerpiece of an offense it would be Payton. 

[Hunter2_1]

Can't believe no one has mentioned Lache Seastrunk. Forum's slacking.

[sammymvpknight]

7 hours ago, khaosoy said:

I think the Wilt Chamberlain of RBs is Jim Brown by a wide margin. Payton dominated because he was one of the most natural runners of all time and while he had some physical dominance, it was nothing like what Jim Brown possessed. I don't think there was a single player who was on Brown's level physically at that time, he was the epitome of an athletic freak whereas in Payton's case there were quite a few like Ronnie Lott, Lawrence Taylor, Reggie White, Bruce Smith, and Leroy Selmon.

As far as the topic in general, I think you got to give to Walter Payton. His receiving stats are comparable to LTs but he did it well before it became popular to be a dual-threat at the position. Payton was also THE weapon on those Bears teams so defenses were often focused on only stopping him and he was able to produce like he did which was amazing. He often gets overshadowed by the electricity that Barry Sanders brought to the game but if I had to take 1 RB in history to be the centerpiece of an offense it would be Payton. 

If you look at Browns stats you’d be surprised. In a 14 games season he had seasons of 46 and 47 receptions for 459 and 517 yards. He had 9.5 YPR though his career. Considering the era that he played...that’s elite receiving production from a RB. He also never missed a game through his 9 year career. That’s insane

[bucsfan333]

[Nabbs4u]

14 hours ago, jrry32 said:

On 5/31/2018 at 12:56 AM, Nabbs4u said:

Sorry Jrry but Gurley's name shouldn't be uttered in the slightest for this thread. Like not even whispered at this point. If any "Current RB" has a case it's Leveon Bell, that's it! Even he though is in a class below LT and Faulk.

Gurley has a higher ceiling than Bell. Gurley's always had an enormous ceiling. If someone wants to talk about his potential, I say go for it. Many of you would have shut down this conversation 20 years ago if Faulk were brought up.

20 years ago Marshall Faulk shouldn't have been mentioned either in the conversation, that's the point. That answer back then would of been an overwhelming Walter or Brown.

You can't be in a conversation for Most Complete RB in NFL History after 1 outstanding season, Period! It be the equivalent of me suggesting Carson Wentz for GOAT status conversations which would be just as absurd. It should never happen this early in a career.

Does that mean neither of them "After" their careers are over or at minimum 1/2 way through it can join the conversation ,of course not. Gurley just has no business in this thread at this time, that's all.

[jrry32]

6 hours ago, Nabbs4u said:

20 years ago Marshall Faulk shouldn't have been mentioned either in the conversation, that's the point. That answer back then would of been an overwhelming Walter or Brown.

You can't be in a conversation for Most Complete RB in NFL History after 1 outstanding season, Period! It be the equivalent of me suggesting Carson Wentz for GOAT status conversations which would be just as absurd. It should never happen this early in a career.

Does that mean neither of them "After" their careers are over or at minimum 1/2 way through it can join the conversation ,of course not. Gurley just has no business in this thread at this time, that's all.

Yes, he should have, if someone mentioned his potential, because he's in the conversation now. Which highlights the silliness of getting upset when people choose to talk about NFL HBs who COULD be in the conversation in the future. This site is called FootballsFUTURE. I'm a lot more impressed by people who can successfully use foresight than people who argue with hindsight. It takes balls to put yourself out there behind something that is uncertain.

[Thomas5737]

21 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Gurley has a higher ceiling than Bell. Gurley's always had an enormous ceiling. If someone wants to talk about his potential, I say go for it. Many of you would have shut down this conversation 20 years ago if Faulk were brought up.

Carlos Hyde had a higher ceiling than Bell. Bell gets it done with determination, at least prior to last year, last year he was like a normal back, before that he refused to allow defenders to force their will upon him he just never gave up on a play.

Gurley has top end speed on Zeke, that is it. So I'd easily go with Zeke, Bell, Johnson if healthy and probably a couple other backs ahead of Gurley right now as far as best all around back. Gurley doesn't have consistent power or great movement imo. Just not as shifty as the other top backs but he does have the best breakaway ability. He does need time to show what all he is capable of just like Zeke and the other young backs.

Alvin Karama gets my vote for the backs who haven't done enough to be mentioned yet. We'll see if he holds up but he breaks more tackles than the bruisers, breaks more explosive plays than the explosive runners he just doesn't get the carries to really shine yet. But 6.1 per carry and 81 catches (800+ yards) as a rookie and he has that determination that Bell had that made him great and he has a lot more physical talent than Bell so if he continues and his body holds up he should be in this conversation in a few years. I think he is probably the best back in the league right now.

[DoleINGout]

Give me Clinton Portis followed by Fred Taylor. Le'Veon Bell is there for me too but he's had so many distractions between being suspended, holding out, and getting hurt. LaDainian Tomlinson is up there as I see he's been mentioned quite a bit.

[jrry32]

47 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

Carlos Hyde had a higher ceiling than Bell. Bell gets it done with determination, at least prior to last year, last year he was like a normal back, before that he refused to allow defenders to force their will upon him he just never gave up on a play.

Carlos Hyde does not have a higher ceiling than Bell. Ceiling includes passing game ability.

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Gurley has top end speed on Zeke, that is it. So I'd easily go with Zeke, Bell, Johnson if healthy and probably a couple other backs ahead of Gurley right now as far as best all around back. Gurley doesn't have consistent power or great movement imo. Just not as shifty as the other top backs but he does have the best breakaway ability. He does need time to show what all he is capable of just like Zeke and the other young backs.

Gurley has more than top-end speed on Zeke. He's a much better receiving HB. And Gurley is more shifty than Zeke. But you're also understating the significance of top-end speed.

You can go with whomever you want. Doesn't make any difference to me. Fact is that Johnson and Gurley both have 1 elite season. Gurley's elite season was better than Johnson's. Bell is more proven, but he's not as talented. Zeke isn't the talent that Gurley is either.

[Thomas5737]

9 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Carlos Hyde does not have a higher ceiling than Bell. Ceiling includes passing game ability.

Physically, he came into the league as a better athlete. Bell just does more with what he has.

10 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Gurley has more than top-end speed on Zeke. He's a much better receiving HB. And Gurley is more shifty than Zeke. But you're also understating the significance of top-end speed.

You can go with whomever you want. Doesn't make any difference to me. Fact is that Johnson and Gurley both have 1 elite season. Gurley's elite season was better than Johnson's. Bell is more proven, but he's not as talented. Zeke isn't the talent that Gurley is either.

I see very little shiftiness when I watch Gurley. He seems to have long legs or something, not very fluid movement. Most see him as much better than I do so maybe I am wrong about him I can only go by what I see but I see and that is a good back with great breakaway speed. Zeke has a higher catch rate and has more yards per reception over Gurley he just doesn't have the same number of targets but I don't know if that alone makes Gurley a "much better receiving back" but I would say no, just more used. All of these young guys will put themselves in the order they should be in eventually we will just have to wait and see.

[jrry32]

Just now, Thomas5737 said:

Physically, he came into the league as a better athlete. Bell just does more with what he has.

Better athlete =/= higher ceiling

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I see very little shiftiness when I watch Gurley. He seems to have long legs or something, not very fluid movement. Most see him as much better than I do so maybe I am wrong about him I can only go by what I see but I see and that is a good back with great breakaway speed.

That's as far off as you can be. Gurley's shiftiness comes from his speed and fluidity rather than the sort of sharp cuts you see from smaller HBs.

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Zeke has a higher catch rate and has more yards per reception over Gurley he just doesn't have the same number of targets but I don't know if that alone makes Gurley a "much better receiving back" but I would say no, just more used. All of these young guys will put themselves in the order they should be in eventually we will just have to wait and see.

In Zeke's career, he has 58 catches for 632 yards and 3 TDs. In the 2017 season alone, Gurley posted 64 catches for 788 yards and 6 TDs. You've been smoking crack if you're trying to argue that Zeke is a better receiver than Gurley.

[Nabbs4u]

1 hour ago, jrry32 said:

Yes, he should have, if someone mentioned his potential, because he's in the conversation now. Which highlights the silliness of getting upset when people choose to talk about NFL HBs who COULD be in the conversation in the future. This site is called FootballsFUTURE. I'm a lot more impressed by people who can successfully use foresight than people who argue with hindsight. It takes balls to put yourself out there behind something that is uncertain.

You have no more foresight into knowing Gurley will become a HOF like LT and Faulk (what it would take to be in the conversation) then my two year nephew. You're Assuming! You're projecting your fandhood. That's it.Those are also the same balls that would disappear like a thief in the night if he ended up not living up to your hype and busted hard the next 3-4 years for whatever the reasons. Injury, fluke, etc. 

The title of the thread is "Most complete back in NFL history". Gurley isn't, plain and simple. Question wasn't in 20 years "Who Could Be" ....... That's the point.

[jrry32]

1 minute ago, Nabbs4u said:

You have no more foresight into knowing Gurley will become a HOF like LT and Faulk (what it would take to be in the conversation) then my two year nephew. You're Assuming! You're projecting your fandhood. That's it.

The title of the thread is "Most complete back in NFL history". Gurley isn't, plain and simple. Question wasn't in 20 years "Who Could Be" ....... That's the point.

Your two-year old nephew must know football quite well.

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Those are also the same balls that would disappear like a thief in the night if he ended up not living up to your hype and busted hard the next 3-4 years for whatever the reasons. Injury, fluke, etc. 

Uhhh no, I've been wrong before, and it still doesn't stop me from putting my neck out there and making projections. If you can't handle being wrong, well, stick to the hindsight discussion. 

[Thomas5737]

1 hour ago, jrry32 said:

In Zeke's career, he has 58 catches for 632 yards and 3 TDs. In the 2017 season alone, Gurley posted 64 catches for 788 yards and 6 TDs. You've been smoking crack if you're trying to argue that Zeke is a better receiver than Gurley.

Zeke has played 25 games, after 25 games Gurley had 53 catches for 438 yards and 0 TDs.

Bulk stats don't prove one is better. Zeke catches more targets and has been more productive per catch (and per target obviously) in their careers. Gurley proved last year that he can be a good receiving back as they went to him heavily (87 targets). Zeke is still waiting for that and with Witten retiring this may be his year to take on more of that role, and crack is bad.

[jrry32]

51 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

Zeke has played 25 games, after 25 games Gurley had 53 catches for 438 yards and 0 TDs.

Gurley was playing on the worst offense in the NFL. It was obvious to anyone who watched him what a threat he was in the passing game. McVay recognized that and used it. Don't try to hide behind this weak BS. We saw what Gurley could do last year. Zeke hasn't shown that ability. If Zeke ever does, then we can talk about it. We don't need to engage in willful ignorance to make your incorrect opinions plausible.

Here's the perfect example of it:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000714053/Todd-Gurley-makes-one-handed-catch-and-run-for-33-yards

Gurley did that while playing for Fisher. Yet, Fisher's idiots never thought it was a good idea to use him as a major passing game weapon. That's the difference between McVay and a dinosaur like Fisher. He uses offensive players to their full potential.

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Bulk stats don't prove one is better.

Yes, they do.

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Zeke catches more targets and has been more productive per catch (and per target obviously) in their careers.

You have to rely on invoking the Jeff Fisher era to make your weak comparisons work. Todd Gurley showed receiving ability in 2017 that Zeke has never come close to showing. Until he does, there is no comparison.

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Gurley proved last year that he can be a good receiving back as they went to him heavily (87 targets). Zeke is still waiting for that and with Witten retiring this may be his year to take on more of that role, and crack is bad.

No, Gurley proved last year that he can be an elite receiving back. Zeke has never shown that. Zeke has never shown the ability to do all of the things Gurley did last year as a receiver. You're assuming Zeke has potential for something he has never shown. 

EDIT: In fact, why does Zeke not have better passing game numbers? You're claiming he's a great receiving HB. Why doesn't Dallas target him often? Their OC, Scott Linehan, is known for targeting his HBs in the passing game. Steven Jackson had 90 receptions in 2006 while playing for Linehan. Linehan targeted Jahvid Best, Reggie Bush, and Joique Bell a lot in Detroit. Why is Zeke not getting the same treatment?