Preseason week 2 GDT: 49ers vs Texans

[757-NINER]

Meh, Taylor has never impressed me as a punt returner tbh...

[Forge]

3 minutes ago, 757-NINER said:

Meh, Taylor has never impressed me as a punt returner tbh...

I mean, he was tied for 9th in average yardage and you really have to get up to #5 before there is a notable difference between he and a guy ahead of him (6-9 were separated by .3 yards per return, meanwhile a half yard separated Taylor from the guy directly below him). I'm not saying he's elite or anything, but absolutely nothing wrong with that level of production back there. He's a pretty good punt returner. 

[y2lamanaki]

12 minutes ago, Forge said:

I mean, he was tied for 9th in average yardage and you really have to get up to #5 before there is a notable difference between he and a guy ahead of him (6-9 were separated by .3 yards per return, meanwhile a half yard separated Taylor from the guy directly below him). I'm not saying he's elite or anything, but absolutely nothing wrong with that level of production back there. He's a pretty good punt returner. 

I agree- Taylor is an underrated, reliable punt returner who knows how to get north/south immediately. But there is also no good reason to not put Pettis back there, especially given his NCAA record. 

[Forge]

17 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said:

I agree- Taylor is an underrated, reliable punt returner who knows how to get north/south immediately. But there is also no good reason to not put Pettis back there, especially given his NCAA record. 

Agreed. I think they should share the load a bit. Shares are debatable, but I think they should both do it. To start the season, I'm more inclined to have Taylor deep if the punt will be inside the twenty I think, but I'm pretty sure that is my cautious nature talking. 

[J-ALL-DAY]

Sharing PR duties? Really? Come on now lol. 

 

[Forge]

12 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Sharing PR duties? Really? Come on now lol. 

 

Why wouldn't you? Plenty of teams have multiple returners. It's not like a 50 / 50 split....

You act like it's the worst idea ever. It's really not.

So often, people in here talk about young players earning their spot and all that, but I mention basically doing exactly that in this situation, and people are apoplectic. Kind of funny. There's nothing wrong with sharing the punt return duties, particularly to start the season. Let Pettis earn the full time role. Why just give it to him when you have a fairly good returner who is reliable and dependent back there to begin with? Yes, he was a great punt returner in college, and yes, that has typically translated well at the NFL level for previous all time great returners, but it's not a guarantee, so there's nothing wrong with letting him earn it. If he's as good as everyone is making him out to be, he should have a full time PR job locked up in no time. 

[J-ALL-DAY]

How many teams have multiple punt returners? I'm sorry but if you aren't confident in Pettis catching the ball inside the 20, then don't have him out there at all. If you are, then he should be the lone PR.

Sure plenty of teams have multiple returners in terms of one handling the KR duties and the other handling the PR duties, but I can't recall many, if any that have multiple punt returning sharing duties depending on where the opposing team is punting from.

[Forge]

30 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

How many teams have multiple punt returners? I'm sorry but if you aren't confident in Pettis catching the ball inside the 20, then don't have him out there at all. If you are, then he should be the lone PR.

Sure plenty of teams have multiple returners in terms of one handling the KR duties and the other handling the PR duties, but I can't recall many, if any that have multiple punt returning sharing duties depending on where the opposing team is punting from.

These are all punt returning figures: 

Arizona had about a 2:1 split. 

Denver was about 50/50

Houston didn't have a single punt returner over 10 attempts (this is mitigated by injury, I don't know what their structure would have been had Fuller and Ervin been healthy the full season). 

Hell, even in detroit, who had the best punt returner in football, TJ jones still got 10 returns. 

The Rams had probably the second best returner in Cooper, and Austin still got 25% of the returns. 

Miami had about a 3:1 split. 

The Saints were 32:24 between Kamara and Ginn

The Bucs were 21:13. 

Pitt had a 3:2 split. 

Carolina was about 55/45 in their split on punt returns. 

The Jets were 50/50

Etc etc. 

And yes, there are plenty of teams that also have a single returner. All I'm saying is that this idea isn't absolutely crazy or anything like that, and there's nothing wrong with making Pettis earn it. 

[J-ALL-DAY]

Okay, I didn't check all or know the certain situations for all, but I do know TJ Jones got his returns from weeks 11-13 when Agnew wasn't playing. 

I checked the Dolphins and couldn't really make up when and why Landry got his returns. One of the weeks Grant got no returns at all. It was week 3, maybe because he wasn't delivering the in the first two weeks? But then the following week when they split duties, I saw both had one return inside the 10 yard line and another in the 25-30 range. So your guess is as good as mine for why they were alternating that game. I know against the Jets the only return Landry got was late in the 4th quarter when the game was tied. So yeah, after they alternated early on in one of the games, Landry seemed to only get a return here and there depending on if they needed a big play. That is something the Cardinals used to do with Peterson. 

As for Cooper and Austin? Austin got all 12 returns in the first five weeks when Cooper had zero returns. After week 5? Cooper had all the returns and Austin didn't return one from that point on.

For the Broncos, McKenzie didn't play in games 10 and 11, and Taylor got a return a game during those two games. Then Taylor got 9 returns from games 13-16, while McKenzie didn't return a single punt during that period. 

Then on to the Saints, it was actually 14 returns for Tommylee Lewis and 19 returns for Ginn. Maybe you were looking at KRs? Anyways, Ginn had all 19 of his returns from games 1-9. After that? 0? Tommylee Lewis had zero returns from games 1-9, and all 14 returns after that. 

On to the Cardinals. Peterson had 9 of his 12 returns from games 11-16. Williams during that same period? 2 of his 21. And those two came against the Jaguars where he had the two first returns of the game and then never returned another punt the rest of the season. Why? Don''t ask me, it was a 20 yard return that didn't result in a fumble.

Now on to the Buccaneers. It was a 14 to 6 split between Reedy and Humphries. Humphries got all six returns during games 10/12/14. Reedy didn't play from game 11 on. So he had one return in the same game that Humphries got. 

Sorry I had to go all @y2lamanaki on you....or you should be apologizing to me to have me do all this research LOL. 

Basically, I don't see many examples of dual punt returners. I see cases of teams using multiple punt returners for one season, but that's usually when one guy gets hurt or he just isn't doing his job. The Dolphins would be the best example for your argument. Though I still don't have a clue what the hell was going on in on of those weeks.

[Forge]

52 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Okay, I didn't check all or know the certain situations for all, but I do know TJ Jones got his returns from weeks 11-13 when Agnew wasn't playing. 

I checked the Dolphins and couldn't really make up when and why Landry got his returns. One of the weeks Grant got no returns at all. It was week 3, maybe because he wasn't delivering the in the first two weeks? But then the following week when they split duties, I saw both had one return inside the 10 yard line and another in the 25-30 range. So your guess is as good as mine for why they were alternating that game. I know against the Jets the only return Landry got was late in the 4th quarter when the game was tied. So yeah, after they alternated early on in one of the games, Landry seemed to only get a return here and there depending on if they needed a big play. That is something the Cardinals used to do with Peterson. 

As for Cooper and Austin? Austin got all 12 returns in the first five weeks when Cooper had zero returns. After week 5? Cooper had all the returns and Austin didn't return one from that point on.

For the Broncos, McKenzie didn't play in games 10 and 11, and Taylor got a return a game during those two games. Then Taylor got 9 returns from games 13-16, while McKenzie didn't return a single punt during that period. 

Then on to the Saints, it was actually 14 returns for Tommylee Lewis and 19 returns for Ginn. Maybe you were looking at KRs? Anyways, Ginn had all 19 of his returns from games 1-9. After that? 0? Tommylee Lewis had zero returns from games 1-9, and all 14 returns after that. 

On to the Cardinals. Peterson had 9 of his 12 returns from games 11-16. Williams during that same period? 2 of his 21. And those two came against the Jaguars where he had the two first returns of the game and then never returned another punt the rest of the season. Why? Don''t ask me, it was a 20 yard return that didn't result in a fumble.

Now on to the Buccaneers. It was a 14 to 6 split between Reedy and Humphries. Humphries got all six returns during games 10/12/14. Reedy didn't play from game 11 on. So he had one return in the same game that Humphries got. 

Sorry I had to go all @y2lamanaki on you....or you should be apologizing to me to have me do all this research LOL. 

Basically, I don't see many examples of dual punt returners. I see cases of teams using multiple punt returners for one season, but that's usually when one guy gets hurt or he just isn't doing his job. The Dolphins would be the best example for your argument. Though I still don't have a clue what the hell was going on in on of those weeks.

Pretty solid research. You are right on the Saints, i may have been looking at kick returns. And it's fair to say that yes, less teams use dual returners than was suggested initially so maybe it's not as common as the base stats suggest, and that's fine. Its possible that Carolina / Pitt had similar game by game situations going on as well, I don't know. 

But then there is the very simple question I have - what's wrong with making him earn it and prove to be trustworthy? I'm not really moving the goal posts on this argument since this was one of my initial points, but one that hasn't been addressed. Obviously you have addressed the other point very well, so there's no arguing that. But any time we sign some washed up vet that is criticized by fans because we have some young guy already there, the immediate chorus of "there's nothing wrong with making him earn it in competition" starts up to defend the move. Again, I didn't say that it had to stay this way the entire season or that it had to be an even split. But he's had two punt returns in preseason on which he was fine. I don't see what's wrong with being cautious in this scenario. 2 punt returns (obviously I'm assuming that he'll get more) isn't much of a sample size at this point, so hard to say that he's earned it. I mean, Taylor is a pretty good returner. It's not like we have a bum back there right now. We actually can afford to be a little cautious with this scenario. 

Sorry for making you do the research, but at least you did it well

[rudyZ]

19 hours ago, 757-NINER said:

What are we talking about here....are you saying@Leo? Sam?

If we're talking SAM, Harold is simply a more complete LB at this point. I don't trust Pita in coverage, nor in containment against the run. Harold is no world beater but he is assignment sound and looks improved as a coverage defender from the naked eye. Harold is fine if you use him strictly at SAM. He's not a pass-rusher and never will be so holding out hope that he'll flash something as a Leo is pointless. Have to hope the combination of Marsh and Attachou will be enough there. 

But with Pita, I still see rawness that needs refinement. He's not there yet. Right now I see a speed rusher who still needs work with the physicality of playing out on the edge if we're talking Leo. And an athlete who still needs a ton of work with recognition as a zone defender to not be a liability as a SAM. Not to mention being better at holding the edge, against the run.

I mean more in a playing time sense. Eli is using a roster spot and reps, and doesn't seem to have any upside. I know, everything's possible, but are we really on a superbowl run this year? Do we need Eli's adequateness, or do we need upside? I mean, Dekoda Watson has more upside than Eli. And he's more sound technically and assignment-wise than Pita. So, do we really still need Eli? Or could we afford to let him go, and give important reps to a raw player who has more upside? I don't know how much better Pita can get on the PS. It's preseason, throw him in there against the 2s, instead of the 3s, just to get better game tape on him (which comes back to something I mentioned, are we only playing him against 3s so there's no decent tape on him, so we can stash him on the PS more easily?). I just don't see what we're learning about guys like Eli and Dekoda by playing them, as opposed as what we could learn about Pita by playing him instead. 

I hope Marsh and Sneeze will be good enough, but so far, they have failed to make any visible impact, in my opinion. 

[J-ALL-DAY]

9 minutes ago, Forge said:

Pretty solid research. You are right on the Saints, i may have been looking at kick returns. And it's fair to say that yes, less teams use dual returners than was suggested initially so maybe it's not as common as the base stats suggest, and that's fine. Its possible that Carolina / Pitt had similar game by game situations going on as well, I don't know. 

But then there is the very simple question I have - what's wrong with making him earn it and prove to be trustworthy? I'm not really moving the goal posts on this argument since this was one of my initial points, but one that hasn't been addressed. Obviously you have addressed the other point very well, so there's no arguing that. But any time we sign some washed up vet that is criticized by fans because we have some young guy already there, the immediate chorus of "there's nothing wrong with making him earn it in competition" starts up to defend the move. Again, I didn't say that it had to stay this way the entire season or that it had to be an even split. But he's had two punt returns in preseason on which he was fine. I don't see what's wrong with being cautious in this scenario. 2 punt returns (obviously I'm assuming that he'll get more) isn't much of a sample size at this point, so hard to say that he's earned it. I mean, Taylor is a pretty good returner. It's not like we have a bum back there right now. We actually can afford to be a little cautious with this scenario. 

Sorry for making you do the research, but at least you did it well

Sure, no problem with Pettis earning it. I just didn't get why Pettis would be trusted on the field up until the 20 yard line. Either he is trustworthy or not. If he gives reason to pause then he probably shouldn't be returning any punts. If Pettis gets the first shot and isn't proving himself then by all accounts I have no problem going with Taylor. 

[rudyZ]

3 hours ago, Forge said:

I mean, he was tied for 9th in average yardage and you really have to get up to #5 before there is a notable difference between he and a guy ahead of him (6-9 were separated by .3 yards per return, meanwhile a half yard separated Taylor from the guy directly below him). I'm not saying he's elite or anything, but absolutely nothing wrong with that level of production back there. He's a pretty good punt returner. 

Honestly, last year it felt like Taylor was just sent in there to fair catch the ball. I never really noticed his returns. He must have this good no-nonsense style of return that, while not flashy, just gets the job done.

[Forge]

Just now, J-ALL-DAY said:

Sure, no problem with Pettis earning it. I just didn't get why Pettis would be trusted on the field up until the 20 yard line. Either he is trustworthy or not. If he gives reason to pause then he probably shouldn't be returning any punts. If Pettis gets the first shot and isn't proving himself then by all accounts I have no problem going with Taylor. 

Oh, just my cautious nature as indicated. That's my scary zone if he muffs or something lol. It's a pretty arbitrary figure. 

[Forge]

1 minute ago, rudyZ said:

Honestly, last year it felt like Taylor was just sent in there to fair catch the ball. I never really noticed his returns. He must have this good no-nonsense style of return that, while not flashy, just gets the job done.

FWIW, his fair catch numbers weren't out of line at all. He had 16 in 46 total punts. Not bad at all. Agnew had 16 in 45, Sherels had 24 in 63, Benjamin had 25 in 52. Cohen had 15 in 44. Then you have Cooper who only had 8 in 40 lol. So obviously there are those who slant toward no FC, and those who do, but for the most part, Taylor seems to be right at the average.