Random Ravens Thoughts: New Forum Edition

[berlin calling]

... and in 3 years from now you'll realise the Raven drafted RGIII, after he suffered a knee injury getting hammered by a Bengals LB while trying to scramble and afterwards never being able to return to his college form.

i mean i understand all you fans drinking the purple cool aid and being all excited but he really could just be another Ravens QB bust.

people watched this coaching staff run a middle age offense for years and w/o and hesitance trust them to switch it 180° to their new QB style.

yeah, i don't see it. i maybe be very wrong and for the love of god i dearly hope so. how cool would it be to have the top QB of the division and the Steelers being held back by their dull copy of a franchise QB.

however, i remain veeeery sceptical, theere are much too many IFs and WHENs for my liking.

[drd23]

You're more than welcome to be sceptical about Lamar Jackson, but on this

8 minutes ago, berlin calling said:

people watched this coaching staff run a middle age offense for years and w/o and hesitance trust them to switch it 180° to their new QB style

I think the optimism comes from the fact that the major coaching inputs for the offense (Morninhweg and Roman) have both had experience integrating a scrambling QB into an offense that mixes traditional NFL concepts with more spread concepts and using more shotgun/pistol formations.  If neither of them had had this experience I'd 100% agree with you, but they do

[DreamKid]

3 minutes ago, berlin calling said:

... and in 3 years from now you'll realise the Raven drafted RGIII, after he suffered a knee injury getting hammered by a Bengals LB while trying to scramble and afterwards never being able to return to his college form.

RGIII was never a great prospect imo, and certainly never a dynamic runner. He was a straight line mover with C+ to B speed. He and kaepernik relied on heavy run games to keep the box loaded and throwing windows wide open down the field. Whenever the run game got shut down on them and they had to nut up and throw like men they usually fell apart. Griffin was the better of the two but really neither were great throwers of the football either. Give Luck or Rodgers a minor bump in speed and they'll put up similar rushing totals.

Lamar Jackson is a different animal, he can create on his own. He doesn't need the option or heavy play action every time he throws. He's built up an arsenal of jukes and movements that surpass most runners already in the league, he knows how to take hits if he can't avoid them (which is rare). He pulls off moves we've just never seen before, the game comes easy to him. Also his raw speed which will only increase (he's been 21 for 3 months) is just at another level. He can pull away from contact or get to the sideline quicker than any QB in history. His top speed might not meet Vick's but his control and COD greatly surpasses his. 

It's fine to ponder injuries with a mobile QB, look at last year with Wentz's knee getting blown up. Just acknowledge the difference in situation and ability we're dealing with.

46 minutes ago, berlin calling said:

i mean i understand all you fans drinking the purple cool aid and being all excited but he really could just be another Ravens QB bust

This can be said about any QB prospect ever. What Kool-Aid are we drinking? I think he's an elite runner, and an average passer with a big arm. That isn't opinion it's fact. He's a unique prospect and a cheap high end possible QBOTF pick. Another fact. We can sit him for a year or two and let him grow as a player, not putting immediate pressure on him. Something that's led to a lot of success at the position in the past. Once again, fact. Case Keenum and Blake Bortles didn't make a single throw Lamar Jackson couldn't in the playoffs or regular season. We won a Super Bowl with Trent Dilfer. We drafted and groomed a mobile dual threat black QB in Tyrod Taylor who just went to the playoffs. Greg Roman built an offense for a mobile dual threat QB that took his team to the Super Bowl. MM and James Urban helped engineer and facilitate Michael Vick's most successful seasons. That's five more facts. Lamar Jackson has progressed as passer every year since he started as a true freshman at 18 years old, showing a clear ability to learn and grow resulting in a steadily growing completion percentage that saw a large jump every year.

Vick's junior season stat line: 

2000

97

179

54.2

1,439

9

7

127.4

113

636

5.6

9

Lamar's junior season stat line:

2017	13	13	254	430	59.1	3,660	27	10	146.6	232	1,601	6.9	18

Despite not having the redshirt year to grow and mature as a QB methodically like Vick did, Lamar and his 3rd year stats show the difference in caliber.

That's two more facts.

Not a single fact I've given is fan narrative or made up. All of it is logical evidence as to why we as fans should be excited about him as a player and pick, especially considering the price we paid compared to other QB prospects of the past and present who don't have facts of this caliber. 

Dislike the pick all you want, but you're the one reaching for your position.

[berlin calling]

1 hour ago, DreamKid said:

RGIII was never a great prospect imo, and certainly never a dynamic runner.

[...]

Dislike the pick all you want, but you're the one reaching for your position.

i should have expressed that differently. i am very sceptical that LJ will stay healthy when he keeps up running the volume he did in College.
thus, very similar to RGIII, his career may very well be cut short because he'll expose himself much more than a pocket passer. yes i understand RGIII had other shortcomings and probably an inflated ego to top all that but you may understand what i was getting at.

i am in now way reaching and in fact hope you are right in your assumption as i would be ecstatic to have the weapon at QB you make him out to be. i am a fan of the Baltimore Ravens and thus hope that every player drafted by this team will be a future star in this league.

however, until he does not play at least a few meaningful games you should maybe trim down your full-on hyperbowl, that is all there is to say for me at this point in regards to Lamar Jackson. convice yourself all you want with college stats and metrics but sports and future success of rookie athletes is much more than pure stats, i get that you americans cannot get enough of that ish.

i respect your opinion however it is really based on nothing but assumption at this point. may be wrong may be right, again i hope you are right but we'll never know until his first few starts in this league are done with.

 

[Mancunian Raven]

The only examples RGIII needs to set for Jackson are repeated viewings of the play where he tried to scramble against the Ravens and got squashed by Haloti Ngata, and the proof of what happens to scrambling QBs who don't learn how to play inside the pocket as well.

Having said that, I'm more than happy for RGIII to be the backup QB for 2018. I don't want Jackson stepping onto the field before he's ready, and especially not in an offense built for Joe Flacco, who only scrambles when he's completely had enough of incompetent receivers botching every catch.

[diamondbull424]

6 hours ago, Mancunian Raven said:

The only examples RGIII needs to set for Jackson are repeated viewings of the play where he tried to scramble against the Ravens and got squashed by Haloti Ngata, and the proof of what happens to scrambling QBs who don't learn how to play inside the pocket as well.

Having said that, I'm more than happy for RGIII to be the backup QB for 2018. I don't want Jackson stepping onto the field before he's ready, and especially not in an offense built for Joe Flacco, who only scrambles when he's completely had enough of incompetent receivers botching every catch.

I think this is a slight misconception that I keep hearing. I know Joe Flacco isn’t a scrambling quarterback, but I think we sometimes forget just how athletic he used to be (and kind of still is). I could easily see Flacco handling some RPO plays and getting some yardage if he decided to take off. Granted, I’m sure the likelyhood of him taking off would be incredibly low, but I think he’s got the athleticism to handle it in moderation.

The point of me saying this? I think we could institute these plays into the offense for Flacco to learn and just not call them with a high amount of frequency when Flacco is in. Make it plays we call more with RG3 and LJ8, but mix it in there every now and again.

Edited April 30, 2018 by diamondbull424

[berlin calling]

my biggest question mark in regards to coaching is: Harbaugh has never been somebody to run the score up on teams, just one or 2 scores ahead and he seemed to settle for a very run heavy offense to just run the clock out starting 3rd quarter.

doesn't seem to be ideal for what this potential new offense would/should be run imo. and i cannot see Harbaugh change one bit, that is one of the things i was trying to get at earlier.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Just now, berlin calling said:

my biggest question mark in regards to coaching is: Harbaugh has never been somebody to run the score up on teams, just one or 2 scores ahead and he seemed to settle for a very run heavy offense to just run the clock out starting 3rd quarter.

doesn't seem to be ideal for what this potential new offense would/should be run imo. and i cannot see Harbaugh change one bit, that is one of the things i was trying to get at earlier.

My biggest question is not Harbaugh's aggressiveness, but his ability to take a back seat while Roman and Mornhinweg run the offense and change the scheme to fit Jackson's talents and abilities best. Harbaugh historically has struggled to work with people who don't see eye-to-eye with how he wants to run things, and the best example of this would be how he ran Jim Zorn out of town in order to appease Cam Cameron, which ultimately led to us having no QB's coach and Flacco regressing for several years.

If Harbaugh tries to micromanage and get in the way of how Roman/Marty want to run this offense, especially given their backgrounds and how they maximized the skillsets of Kaepernick and Vick, we could be in big trouble with Lamar. If Harbaugh allows them to change the scheme and implement aspects of both SF and Philly's schemes they used, I think Jackson will be just fine. Michael Vick and Colin Kaepernick were not polished passers by any regards - and I think Jackson will be at that same level or better in the next two years - and they played at very high levels under these two coaches.

It's certainly a gamble though. Jackson isn't a guy who we know is going to come in and produce. He needs coaching, he needs development, and if we mess it up it could go very badly.

[diamondbull424]

57 minutes ago, Darth Pees said:

My biggest question is not Harbaugh's aggressiveness, but his ability to take a back seat while Roman and Mornhinweg run the offense and change the scheme to fit Jackson's talents and abilities best. Harbaugh historically has struggled to work with people who don't see eye-to-eye with how he wants to run things, and the best example of this would be how he ran Jim Zorn out of town in order to appease Cam Cameron, which ultimately led to us having no QB's coach and Flacco regressing for several years.

If Harbaugh tries to micromanage and get in the way of how Roman/Marty want to run this offense, especially given their backgrounds and how they maximized the skillsets of Kaepernick and Vick, we could be in big trouble with Lamar. If Harbaugh allows them to change the scheme and implement aspects of both SF and Philly's schemes they used, I think Jackson will be just fine. Michael Vick and Colin Kaepernick were not polished passers by any regards - and I think Jackson will be at that same level or better in the next two years - and they played at very high levels under these two coaches.

It's certainly a gamble though. Jackson isn't a guy who we know is going to come in and produce. He needs coaching, he needs development, and if we mess it up it could go very badly.

This is the same thing people said about Joe Flacco and he did well as a rookie. Honestly the Jackson isn’t ready narrative is overstated. IF Jackson needed to come in and produce, he would be just as proficient if not more capable than RG3 during his rookie campaign.

Like the notion that Baker Mayfield is far more advanced than Jackson is ridiculous. He’s certainly more accurate as a passer and has an underrated arm, but he’s never played in a pro style system and threw to those routes (like Jackson did), he never had to make line calls (like Jackson did), and he never had to go under center and take snaps (like Jackson has practiced for the last two years).

Literally Jackson could take over the offense in 2018, it’s just not ideal to do so. But just like Flacco had training wheels installed within the offense that weren’t ideal for his long term development (make one read and then dump it off to the running back or TE), but along with his elite arm talent allowed him to thrive early; so does Lamar Jackson have elite leg talent that will allow him to get by as a starter early.

The problem with Flacco is that he got complacent with his development once he had relative success and his coaching staff continued to give him inconsistent feedback. But the point is that many who are talking about Jackson have not actually watched him play but just regurgitating what talking heads have stated. The same talking heads that thought Jimmy Clausen was a can’t miss prospect or that Christian Ponder or Blain Gabbert we’re worthy of first round selections.

I’m not all seeing or all knowing and being down on someone for good reason is fine, but many are acting like Jackson isn’t even a decent passer “right now”. If one doesn’t believe he is, then I think people should die a film breakdown and explain to me what they don’t see from him that makes them feel that way. This isn’t necessarily just referring to this post, but just Jackson as a quarterback in general.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

This is the same thing people said about Joe Flacco and he did well as a rookie. Honestly the Jackson isn’t ready narrative is overstated. IF Jackson needed to come in and produce, he would be just as proficient if not more capable than RG3 during his rookie campaign.

Like the notion that Baker Mayfield is far more advanced than Jackson is ridiculous. He’s certainly more accurate as a passer and has an underrated arm, but he’s never played in a pro style system and threw to those routes (like Jackson did), he never had to make line calls (like Jackson did), and he never had to go under center and take snaps (like Jackson has practiced for the last two years).

Literally Jackson could take over the offense in 2018, it’s just not ideal to do so. But just like Flacco had training wheels installed within the offense that weren’t ideal for his long term development (make one read and then dump it off to the running back or TE), but along with his elite arm talent allowed him to thrive early; so does Lamar Jackson have elite leg talent that will allow him to get by as a starter early.

The problem with Flacco is that he got complacent with his development once he had relative success and his coaching staff continued to give him inconsistent feedback. But the point is that many who are talking about Jackson have not actually watched him play but just regurgitating what talking heads have stated. The same talking heads that thought Jimmy Clausen was a can’t miss prospect or that Christian Ponder or Blain Gabbert we’re worthy of first round selections.

I’m not all seeing or all knowing and being down on someone for good reason is fine, but many are acting like Jackson isn’t even a decent passer “right now”. If one doesn’t believe he is, then I think people should die a film breakdown and explain to me what they don’t see from him that makes them feel that way. This isn’t necessarily just referring to this post, but just Jackson as a quarterback in general.

Jackson of course could theoretically come in and produce day one, but the question marks are certainly there as to whether he could or couldn't. I guess you could say the same for any QB. Don't get me wrong though, I feel the way we're approaching Jackson right now is 100% the right way and I've been very vocal about that since before we drafted him.

I'm excited for him to take over, and I really hope that Marty and Roman continue to build on what they did with Vick and Kaepernick instead of going the way of making Jackson a "pocket passer first - dual threat QB second" type of player. Things that seem very simple and obvious to this organization have historically not gone that way recently in terms of how we use players.

[diamondbull424]

6 minutes ago, Darth Pees said:

Jackson of course could theoretically come in and produce day one, but the question marks are certainly there as to whether he could or couldn't. I guess you could say the same for any QB. Don't get me wrong though, I feel the way we're approaching Jackson right now is 100% the right way and I've been very vocal about that since before we drafted him.

I'm excited for him to take over, and I really hope that Marty and Roman continue to build on what they did with Vick and Kaepernick instead of going the way of making Jackson a "pocket passer first - dual threat QB second" type of player. Things that seem very simple and obvious to this organization have historically not gone that way recently in terms of how we use players.

Yeah and I hope my earlier rant didn’t come across as a personal attack. It was more of a rant against the media perception.

I obviously agree with the idea of sitting him. Honestly, if Flacco does a quality job for us this season, I would be very interested in asking him for a pay cut to keep him around an additional year... or perhaps restructuring his deal to give him the money in a signing bonus that we could spread out over time. Give Jackson two years to develop and let him take in another two years. Which might give Flacco just enough years left to decide to retire. Kind of a force retire that might be mutually beneficial to both parties. As others have stated.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

2 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Yeah and I hope my earlier rant didn’t come across as a personal attack. It was more of a rant against the media perception.

Nope, that's exactly how I read it

I obviously agree with the idea of sitting him. Honestly, if Flacco does a quality job for us this season, I would be very interested in asking him for a pay cut to keep him around an additional year... or perhaps restructuring his deal to give him the money in a signing bonus that we could spread out over time. Give Jackson two years to develop and let him take in another two years. Which might give Flacco just enough years left to decide to retire. Kind of a force retire that might be mutually beneficial to both parties. As others have stated.

If, and that's a huge if, Flacco does a quality job this year then I wonder what we could get for him via trade? The bigger factor to me is not Flacco's play, but rather where Jackson is at by the end of this year. I think he's going to make quick progress, and if that happens, I'd rather explore trading Flacco and going with Jackson next year rather than another year of Flacco. But maybe that tone will change if he plays decently and we make the playoffs.

 

[wackywabbit]

Did the people who are saying we are "drinking the purple kool-aid" by being hyped about LJ8 not read the forum the months/weeks/hours/minutes BEFORE we selected him?

[DreamKid]

1 hour ago, wackywabbit said:

Did the people who are saying we are "drinking the purple kool-aid" by being hyped about LJ8 not read the forum the months/weeks/hours/minutes BEFORE we selected him?

Nah bro they're Red Pill, no time for our Matrix.

[diamondbull424]

3 hours ago, wackywabbit said:

Did the people who are saying we are "drinking the purple kool-aid" by being hyped about LJ8 not read the forum the months/weeks/hours/minutes BEFORE we selected him?

Yeah, even before I wanted the Ravens to take him, I loved Jackson as a player. I mean, it’s one thing to be a beastly quarterback, it’s another to make me question if Derwin James is as good a player as I think he is. When I saw James taking a good angle and he still couldn’t catch Jackson with a head start, I thought to myself... who IS that guy?

And that’s just the beginning. I came for the feet, but stayed because of the arm. Guys a beast. Best quarterback in the draft.