Week 11 Post-Game: Packers 24 Seahawks 27

[Mr. Fussnputz]

1 minute ago, CWood21 said:

How?  I legitimately want to know how Sean Payton evolved.

Australopithecus, Cro-magnon, Neanderthal, Homo erectus, Homo sapiens. Something like that.

[chucknorris101]

3 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

How?  I legitimately want to know how Sean Payton evolved.

I dont have a horse in this race either way, but Brees isnt throwing for 8 billion yards a season anymore. When he got talented backs he moved to more balance.

[CWood21]

Just now, chucknorris101 said:

I dont have a horse in this race either way, but Brees isnt throwing for 8 billion yards a season anymore. When he got talented backs he moved to more balance.

So that's a personnel issue, not a play calling issue.

[Mr Anonymous]

7 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

How?  I legitimately want to know how Sean Payton evolved.

The simplest one took place a couple years ago. He recognized the team was imbalanced on offense and that he was doing his QB no favors abandoning the running game. The commitment to running the football has made a world of difference to the QB, o-line, and defense.

[CWood21]

3 minutes ago, Mr Anonymous said:

The simplest one took place a couple years ago. He recognized the team was imbalanced on offense and that he was doing his QB no favors abandoning the running game. The commitment to running the football has made a world of difference to the QB, o-line, and defense.

Last year, New Orleans was 13th in rushing attempts at 444 (27.8 attempts per game).  In 2011, they were 20th with 431 attempts (26.9 attempts).  So they averaged one less attempt per game.  In 2009, the Saints were 7th in rushing attempts with 468 (29.3 rushing attempts).  New Orleans didn't suddenly become a team who decided to run the ball.

[Mr Anonymous]

1 minute ago, CWood21 said:

Last year, New Orleans was 13th in rushing attempts at 444 (27.8 attempts per game).  In 2011, they were 20th with 431 attempts (26.9 attempts).  So they averaged one less attempt per game.  In 2009, the Saints were 7th in rushing attempts with 468 (29.3 rushing attempts).  New Orleans didn't suddenly become a team who decided to run the ball.

More on the Saints ongoing evolution under Payton...

 

Quote

 

This summer, when Chase Daniel opened his playbook and started flipping through it for the first time, he saw diagram after diagram of new plays and route concepts.

There were plenty of familiar images, but there were also a lot of differences from when he last played with the New Orleans Saints in 2012. There were new plays and concepts to take advantage of the skills of wide receivers Michael Thomas and Willie Snead. The formations were different. The protections had changed.

 

He was looking at the evolution of the Saints offense.

“I would say 25 percent of the offense is new. That’s a high percentage. I would absolutely say they’ve evolved,” said Daniel, who played in New Orleans from 2009-12 before returning this summer as Drew Brees' backup at quarterback. "It’s really route concepts." 

One of the criticisms the Saints have grappled with is that their offense has become predictable during 10-plus seasons under coach Sean Payton's watch. And back when those gripes surfaced, there might have been some truth to them, even as the offense continued to find success.

When Payton and Brees landed in New Orleans in 2006, they experimented with offensive philosophy. Payton had not yet established himself as the architect of an attack that would become a perennial NFL leader. Brees had not yet emerged as a quarterback who could effortlessly rip off 5,000-yard seasons with the kind of regularity that would solidify the team's offensive identity. 

Back then, the coach had a binder full of route concepts and plays, and he was trying to figure out what worked best. The Saints had to prove the concept before it could evolve into the science it is now. Once the team started to learn what worked — and what didn’t — there was little concern about playing the hits and getting rid of the other stuff.

“When we first got here, I think it was just more, 'Let’s find what our bread and butter is and be really, really good at that,’ ” Brees said.

Many of those concepts remain as staples of this offense. But the pages being held together have expanded and morphed, creating new staples along the way.

“We’ve turned into more of a stretch zone-oriented offense, which is a change from where we started,” tackle Zach Strief said. “But I certainly think it’s just grown so much. If you looked at what it was in 2006, the package is twice as big.”

Figuring out which plays to call and how to build the game plan has changed, too. Payton and coordinator Pete Carmichael spend countless hours watching video and crafting a plan to rip apart whatever weaknesses exist in a defense.

This isn't an offense that simply does what it does and hopes that's good enough. What you see the Saints do one week might not be the same thing you see the next. This is where Brees sees the greatest change from the early days in New Orleans.

“That’s where I think the evolution has become even greater. From a specific game-planning standpoint, (change comes) from week to week for us now,” Brees said. “It could be like a completely different offense based upon how ... we attack a team and the defense we’re going up against.”

 

 

[Mr Anonymous]

11 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

So that's a personnel issue, not a play calling issue.

They made a concerted effort to change personnel to balance their attack. It would be obtuse to think Payton had no say in that.

[Gopher Trace]

13 hours ago, Mr Anonymous said:

Huge, huge, huge difference between McCarthy and Payton. One evolved. Take a guess at which one.

Cut the Fat

 

Yeah, whatever you think about the decision not to keep Taysom Hill (I'm ambivalent, personally,) you see what Payton is doing with him and are kidding yourself if you think Mac would do anything like it in a million years.

I get it, Outpost is a Rodgers detractor and is entitled to his low opinion of him, but choosing to stick with McCarthy to the point of blackmailing Rodgers to get better with him (and if you're making that threat, I'm assuming you're willing to lose Rodgers in favor of McLardo)... is totally nuts. We do not know how Rodgers would be without McCarthy (I'm thinking he'd do okay, personally). We DO know how McCarthy does with QBs who are not Rodgers, and it ain't pretty, so why the hell would you commit to McCarthy knowing that elite QB play is necessary for him to have any success and that his coaching alone is never sufficient?

Again, I get not liking Rodgers (I like him, but get why others do not), but someone is letting their hate get to their head and not thinking this through. There is no rational reason to choose McCarthy over Aaron.

[CWood21]

2 minutes ago, Mr Anonymous said:

They made a concerted effort to change personnel to balance their attack. It would be obtuse to think Payton had no say in that.

He's always been willing to run the ball.  He's done that since he's been the playcaller with New Orleans.  The biggest difference is Drew Brees isn't throwing the ball 600+ times a season.  Drew Brees threw the ball 536 times last year, and he's on pace 540 for this year.

[Mr Anonymous]

Quote

“Some teams do the same thing every week and get good at it and handle everything,” Lombardi said. “We evolve a lot just during the course of the year. There’s a lot of things you do in reaction to what you’re seeing on defense in a given week; whatever you’re doing kind of enters your offense, and you carry forward. It’s not just a play that shows up and leaves.”

McCarthy is in the group that believes in doing the same things and simply needing to execute better when it fails. He has stated as such. The Saints change their looks on a weekly basis to exploit the opposing weaknesses in the defense much the way the Patriots do. The Packers under McCarthy rarely change looks. The Packers are a repeat look and execute team much like the Lombardi Packers were.

[Mr Anonymous]

3 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

He's always been willing to run the ball.  He's done that since he's been the playcaller with New Orleans.  The biggest difference is Drew Brees isn't throwing the ball 600+ times a season.  Drew Brees threw the ball 536 times last year, and he's on pace 540 for this year.

I believe you just agreed with me that they have changed their approach.

[CWood21]

3 minutes ago, Mr Anonymous said:

I believe you just agreed with me that they have changed their approach.

No.  You made the argument that they made a commitment to go to a running game.  I showed the exact argument that their rushing attempts have been relatively static.  The only difference is they don't throw the ball 600+ times a year anymore.  New Orleans is playing at a more methodical pace now than they did.

[Dubz41]

2 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

No.  You made the argument that they made a commitment to go to a running game.  I showed the exact argument that their rushing attempts have been relatively static.  The only difference is they don't throw the ball 600+ times a year anymore.  New Orleans is playing at a more methodical pace now than they did.

That would be evolving with the changes of their roster.  Something MM doesn't do.  Sans the Arodg argument, MM has NOT changed his ways.  We still waste timeouts for NO good reason.  We don't scheme to our strengths or changes in personnel.  Example: We should have gone for it on 4th and two, because we were weaker on the DL from injuries (weren't going to stop the run)and we only had one timeout left.  MM has always had time managemnt issues.

I'm sorry, but most of the teams struggles right now come to lay at the feet of the Head Coach. And that is rightly so.

[PACKRULE]

22 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

He's always been willing to run the ball.  He's done that since he's been the playcaller with New Orleans.  The biggest difference is Drew Brees isn't throwing the ball 600+ times a season.  Drew Brees threw the ball 536 times last year, and he's on pace 540 for this year.

One would think with a high rush count and pass count that the Saint's run allot of plays. We used to as well. MM used to want to run 80 per game tough to do but i recall reading articles bout him wanting to get as many plays as possible. We had what 39 last night. Records be darned Brees has been the better QB over the last few years then AR. The saints had a terrible D for a couple years that didn't help when it came to records. But they were in the playoffs last year and will be again this year. We're likely not going to be.

[CWood21]

1 minute ago, PACKRULE said:

One would think with a high rush count and pass count that the Saint's run allot of plays. We used to as well. MM used to want to run 80 per game tough to do but i recall reading articles bout him wanting to get as many plays as possible. We had what 39 last night. Records be darned Brees has been the better QB over the last few years then AR. The saints had a terrible D for a couple years that didn't help when it came to records. But they were in the playoffs last year and will be again this year. We're likely not going to be.

I wish the NFL kept track of pace, but I'm pretty sure our pace is way lower than it used to be.