The greatness of Saquon Barkley

[iknowcool]

5 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

The fact that RBs don't matter relative to  big picture success no matter how great they are. The Giants are still a bad football  team regardless of how good Barkley is. Gurley, Kamara, Hunt, Bell, Elliott, Johnson and the best RB of this generation Adrian Peterson have a combined 0 SB rings.

You know who the best 3 RBs were on the last 3 super bowl winners? Corey Clement, James White and CJ Anderson. The last time the Giants won the Superbowl their RB was Ahmad Bradshaw.

Also, given how well other young RBs like Conner (3rd), Chubb (2nd) and Lindsay (UDFA) are doing at a cheaper cost for similar impact to their teama-- it just makes spending the #2 overall pick on a RB no matter how good look bad especially given the need for a QB.

The best left tackle of this generation (Joe Thomas) didn't win a ring, or even start in a playoff game.  DeMarcus Ware didn't win anything.  Antonio Brown hasn't won anything.  Patrick Peterson hasn't won anything.  Rams didn't win with Aaron Donald until their offense started balling out.  There's great players at every position who haven't won anything, it doesn't matter.  

And there's plenty of mid and late round players at other positions balling out.  It's not just RBs and it is a huge misconception that it is.  We just recognize it more with RBs because it's easier to tell when one is playing well due to statistics.  

[Danger]

I know Rookie numbers aren't very indicative of performances long term, but right now if I'm a betting man. Rosen and then Darnold seem like the most likely to be busts from this class of QB's right now. Everyone knows that Allen is a project. Rosen however was the "most pro ready".

[jrry32]

2 hours ago, ET80 said:

Barkley has 600+ yards receiving over 14 games, only behind Christian McCaffrey at RB. If an OC is keeping him in to pass protect, he needs to be fired. Into the sun.

Gurley has 580 receiving yards in 14 games. Yet, he spends a significant number of snaps pass blocking, and his ability to do that is extremely important to our scheme. I guess Sean McVay is just an idiot. If the HB can't be trusted to pick up blitzes, teams will attack that weakness. It is not smart to send your HB out of the backfield on every passing play. You have to be able to rely on him to block.

[Thomas5737]

1 hour ago, VanS said:

I know you're trying to be faceitious but that's not what I meant.  I'm simply telling you that one season doesn't move me anymore.   Dak Prescott taught me that lesson.  Cause after 2016 I was shocked by how badly I missed on him.  Then in 2017 he started looking like the guy I thought he would be.  And now in 2018 he's exactly what I thought his best case scenario was.  Average to below average NFL starter.

I have Baker rated roughly the same.  Maybe slightly lower.  I know Rex Grossman isn't exactly the most flaterring comp but he did make it to one Super Bowl and the size/arm talents do match.  We'll see if he's much better than that.

Rex Grossman lacks the basic skills needed to play quarterback in the NFL, and arm strength happens to be one of those skills.

Grossman has a problem completing passes, whether they be deep or short. The quarterback has many inconsistencies that need work.

The former NFC Champion has one of the least powerful arms in the NFL.

 

If that is how you see Baker, watch him a little. Or just read a little I guess.

Josh Allen, Baker Mayfield top QB velocity during combine throwing

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2018/03/08/josh-allen-baker-mayfield-top-qb-velocity-during-combine-throwing-session/

 

Watching is better. He has great zip on his passes. Is accurate everywhere, minus last week for whatever reason. Already is having a much better year than Grossman's best year. Maybe he doesn't get a lot better because he is so good at the things that takes most QBs a while to learn but I'm okay with that, he is already good enough to be considered a long term starter and leader of a team that can win games.

[jrry32]

17 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

Rex Grossman lacks the basic skills needed to play quarterback in the NFL, and arm strength happens to be one of those skills.

Grossman has a problem completing passes, whether they be deep or short. The quarterback has many inconsistencies that need work.

The former NFC Champion has one of the least powerful arms in the NFL.

 

If that is how you see Baker, watch him a little. Or just read a little I guess.

Josh Allen, Baker Mayfield top QB velocity during combine throwing

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2018/03/08/josh-allen-baker-mayfield-top-qb-velocity-during-combine-throwing-session/

Watching is better. He has great zip on his passes. Is accurate everywhere, minus last week for whatever reason. Already is having a much better year than Grossman's best year. Maybe he doesn't get a lot better because he is so good at the things that takes most QBs a while to learn but I'm okay with that, he is already good enough to be considered a long term starter and leader of a team that can win games.

Grossman might have had a weak arm late in his career, but that dude had a strong arm coming out of college. 

[Thomas5737]

11 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Grossman might have had a weak arm late in his career, but that dude had a strong arm coming out of college. 

Yeah, I don't recall what he was like coming out. Didn't ever really follow him. I remember the sexy Rexy days but it was so short lived it didn't really stick. I know he lacked accuracy and maybe he was always late with his throws so they got picked off and he needed to recognize sooner rather than having a weak arm. Maybe it was an inconsistent arm, fluttered a lot so it looked weak at times. Maybe he had an arm injury. I know Baker Mayfield is a terrible comp for obvious reasons. But hey, why argue with a guy that says he compared him because of similar height and arm to begin with? I should have better things to do. Those things aren't what separates bad from good to great. I expect Baker to pass him in career TD passes at some point next year if he stays healthy.

[JAF-N72EX]

18 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

Yeah, I don't recall what he was like coming out. Didn't ever really follow him. I remember the sexy Rexy days but it was so short lived it didn't really stick. I know he lacked accuracy and maybe he was always late with his throws so they got picked off and he needed to recognize sooner rather than having a weak arm. Maybe it was an inconsistent arm, fluttered a lot so it looked weak at times. Maybe he had an arm injury. I know Baker Mayfield is a terrible comp for obvious reasons. But hey, why argue with a guy that says he compared him because of similar height and arm to begin with? I should have better things to do. Those things aren't what separates bad from good to great. I expect Baker to pass him in career TD passes at some point next year if he stays healthy.

Arm strength(not tied to how far a QB throws btw) was actually Grossman's greatest asset. The problem was his decision WHEN or when not to throw it deep. He couldn't read a defense to save his life but if his first read was wide open 20 yards down field....it was money.

[Thomas5737]

1 minute ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Arm strength(not tied to how far a QB throws btw) was actually Grossman's greatest asset. The problem was his decision WHEN or when not to throw it deep. He couldn't read a defense to save his life but if his first read was wide open 20 yards down field....it was money.

Yeah, there are multiple categories of arm strength. None of them actually matter if you aren't on time, accurate or can't identify where you should throw it. Zip matters, especially in the intermediate and out routes. Those 1 or 2 throws per game (depending) where you actually throw deep it doesn't really matter how hard you throw it as long as it gets there on time, unless you are trying to beat a safety 45 yards down the field and then I think that goes into decision making issues. A lot of times it can look like you lack arm strength if you throw late and the defense has already recovered and beats the receiver to the ball. In any scenario, to stay on topic I'd say Barkley is better than Grossman.

[JAF-N72EX]

19 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

Yeah, there are multiple categories of arm strength. None of them actually matter if you aren't on time, accurate or can't identify where you should throw it. Zip matters, especially in the intermediate and out routes. Those 1 or 2 throws per game (depending) where you actually throw deep it doesn't really matter how hard you throw it as long as it gets there on time, unless you are trying to beat a safety 45 yards down the field and then I think that goes into decision making issues. A lot of times it can look like you lack arm strength if you throw late and the defense has already recovered and beats the receiver to the ball. In any scenario, to stay on topic I'd say Barkley is better than Grossman.

Yep. I'm in the middle of a prject at work. So to keep it as short as I can and to only further expand on this--which I agree.

Throwing a ball has hard you can with as less velocity as you can, CAN become an asset. But that is only IF you know when how much velocity to put on the ball is when becomes a key component and matters most --- see Brees throughout his career as an example. I mean, throwing a 90 mph fastball is great and all but it's not exactly ideal for a WR who is coming across the field on a shallow route with no coverage only 3 yards beyond the LOS lol.    

[JAF-N72EX]

But, to get back on topic. Saquan is incredible and I would like to use this time to say I was one of the VERY FEW who doubted him and admit that I was wrong so far. The guy has been a beast and I could only imagine if he had been drafted by a team with even a half-*** good OL and offense in general. At this point, HE HAS been the entire offense.

[Thomas5737]

16 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Yep. I'm in the middle of a prject at work. So to keep it as short as I can and to only further expand on this--which I agree.

Throwing a ball has hard you can with as less velocity as you can, CAN become an asset. But that is only IF you know when how much velocity to put on the ball is when becomes a key component and matters most --- see Brees throughout his career as an example. I mean, throwing a 90 mph fastball is great and all but it's not exactly ideal for a WR who is coming across the field on a shallow route with no coverage only 3 yards beyond the LOS lol.    

The Browns receivers drop rate has been cut in half over the last handful of weeks. I don't know if it is Baker learning to throw with more touch, the receivers adapting to Baker's arm or Baker just throwing it less to receivers who drop a lot of passes (Njoku, Callaway). It also could be adding the extra set of glue hands, that of course being Breshad Perriman. What?

[matt27j]

I don't think the Giants made a mistake in drafting Barkley. He reminded me of Ladanian and his season reaffirmed that for me. Clearly the best rb. Now they probably will have to lose Odell to find a way to grab their QB. 

Baker could regress, but really it just looks like he's scratching the surface. Once he has full grasp and control of the game...he can approach the passing game in any way which has kept defenses unbalanced. 

Broncos did a good job blitzing but Baker didnt take the check downs as he should have. 

Texans did a great job dropping everyone but then baker wasn't looking deep bc of Watt and Clowney. Did well in the 2nd half though.

Why Derwin fell to the Chargers is the only thing i don't understand. 

[ET80]

19 hours ago, ET80 said:

 

9 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Gurley has 580 receiving yards in 14 games. Yet, he spends a significant number of snaps pass blocking, and his ability to do that is extremely important to our scheme. I guess Sean McVay is just an idiot. If the HB can't be trusted to pick up blitzes, teams will attack that weakness. It is not smart to send your HB out of the backfield on every passing play. You have to be able to rely on him to block.

You have to admit that McVay has a lot more at his disposal in regards to the passing game, so it makes sense to keep Gurley in. Cooks, Woods, Cupp - that's a lot. None of them are nearly as good as Odell, but there's more to spread around, so it makes sense to keep a back in when you have that much to throw to.

You also have to admit you missed the forest for the trees in all of this (which you have a tendency to do in any topic where a Rams player gets mentioned):

19 hours ago, ET80 said:

Right now, only Gurley and Zeke have an argument against Saquan and it comes down to personal preference among those three.

Once again...

19 hours ago, ET80 said:

and it comes down to personal preference among those three.

One more time, just for the ladies...

19 hours ago, ET80 said:

personal preference

Your personal preference is pass protection (or dreadlocks, or guys who wear the #30, or anything that would justify Gurley as the pick). Which is fine. 

Do you, boo. Do you.

[Danger]

Earth Wind and Fire 2.0

AKA 

SaQuon

[AkronsWitness]

12 hours ago, iknowcool said:

So what has Darnold shown you this season that makes you think he will be a franchise QB?  I'm not saying he won't be, but we're acting as if it is definitive when he hasn't played that all that well (whether it's his fault or not).

If the Giants didn't think highly of Darnold, then why should they have picked him?  What if he busts, will you still believe they should have taken Darnold?  There is no reason at this point to think taking Darnold puts them in a better position than taking Barkley when you compare how the two have performed this year.  You have to trust your evaluation, not just take the QB just because or else then you think taking JaMarcus Russell over Calvin, AD, and Joe Thomas was smart.

And the Jets still suck after taking Darnold.  So I'm not sure why him being on the Giants would fast-track their rebuild when he hasn't accomplished that with the Jets.

Darnold was still a highly rated prospect regardless of your personal opinion or how well he has been playing this year so far. He was regarded by many as being the best QB prospect in the draft who you can build around long term. Just because he hasnt lit the world on fire as a rookie doesnt mean he was the wrong pick fo rthe Jets or is going to be bad for his whole career. The point is the Giants are going to suck until they take a swing at a highly rated franchise QB in the draft and nothing Saquon Barkley does is going to change how good the Giants are until that point.

The Giants still dont have a QB to groom on their roster because of taking Barkley #2 overall in a QB loaded draft when they desperately needed one. Outside of maybe landing Haskins this year there are little to no future QBs in this draft, so they will likely have to settle for another 5 win season next year until 2020 and hope they can get a QB then.

I can understand taking Barkley top 5 for a team that already had a QB in place or a QBOTF on their team, but the Giants tried to get cute by squeezing another year out of broken down Eli and it potentially set the rebuild back another 3+ years by not just taking their shot at Darnold/Rosen/Allen/Jackson