Tom Savage formally named starting QB

[CWood21]

31 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

I'm not punishing BOB for beating up a bad division, I'm just simply not rewarding him for it. There is a difference. 

There is.  You said he hasn't found an upgrade at the QB position, and as I pointed out he hasn't really been in a position where he could land one UNTIL this past draft when the Texans traded up for Deshaun Watson.  Did you want the Texans to draft Paxton Lynch in 2016?  That's the only QB they've been in range to draft without trading up significantly to do so.  And given Lynch's inability to win the Broncos' QB position battle, it probably wasn't a bad idea to pass on him.

[mse326]

3 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

There is.  You said he hasn't found an upgrade at the QB position, and as I pointed out he hasn't really been in a position where he could land one UNTIL this past draft when the Texans traded up for Deshaun Watson.  Did you want the Texans to draft Paxton Lynch in 2016?  That's the only QB they've been in range to draft without trading up significantly to do so.  And given Lynch's inability to win the Broncos' QB position battle, it probably wasn't a bad idea to pass on him.

I agree with your points. But Carr is the one we let slip by. Should have taken him instead of XSF. And this isn't just hindsight many were calling for it (some inlcuding me actually were calling to trade up into the back of the 1st and take Teddy Bridgewater). We'll never know, however, what role he had in the decision not to nor do we know how much of the decision was football related and how much was name related.

[Texansfan713]

5 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

There is.  You said he hasn't found an upgrade at the QB position, and as I pointed out he hasn't really been in a position where he could land one UNTIL this past draft when the Texans traded up for Deshaun Watson.  Did you want the Texans to draft Paxton Lynch in 2016?  That's the only QB they've been in range to draft without trading up significantly to do so.  And given Lynch's inability to win the Broncos' QB position battle, it probably wasn't a bad idea to pass on him.

I read somewhere that Obrien wanted Jimmy G. Its too early to judge him yet but its not like O'Brien didnt have his choice of QB's to pick. 

[CWood21]

11 minutes ago, mse326 said:

I agree with your points. But Carr is the one we let slip by. Should have taken him instead of XSF. And this isn't just hindsight many were calling for it (some inlcuding me actually were calling to trade up into the back of the 1st and take Teddy Bridgewater). We'll never know, however, what role he had in the decision not to nor do we know how much of the decision was football related and how much was name related.

Honestly, I don't think there was any way the Texans could afford to take Carr.  Especially with how his brother's career turned out.

[ET80]

26 minutes ago, Texansfan713 said:

•  

54 minutes ago, texans_uk said:

Failed to develop a QB

How many had a legitimate shot to develop? You're squeezing blood from a stone with Fitz, Hoyer. Mallett wasn't going to develop. Osweiler was simply incompetent. The one he's had in his back pocket from the beginning of his era is about to get his chance. If that doesn't work out, he's got the rookie with the pedigree.

54 minutes ago, texans_uk said:

Progressively worse offensive output

I'd argue with a progressively worse offense. Lost Foster, lost Andre, lost both Brandon Brooks and Ben Jones, lost Derek Newton - I get the QB situation has been a focal point, but what offense position outside of Hopkins and Brown has been remotely reliable over the past three seasons?

54 minutes ago, texans_uk said:

Failed to compete outside an historically weak division

Half glass full take - he's progressed this team further in each year (no playoffs in '14, 1st round playoff exit in '15, 2nd round playoff exit in '16).

I get the Raiders were without their MVP QB in the W, but it's not like we can dictate who we play. You play the team in front of you (and it's not like we didn't have that MVP QB dead to rights in Mexico until a horrible spot by the officials cost us that game).

54 minutes ago, texans_uk said:

Let our OL fall into a state of disrepair

Brooks/Jones, I agree with. Susan Sua-Filo? Agree. Jeff Allen? Agree. Derek Newton? Can't blame him for a double patella tendon tear, but you're right on this one.

55 minutes ago, texans_uk said:

Failed to properly address the special teams

Yeah. Ok, agree.

Again, not saying he's Lombardi incarnate, but he's not Chip Kelly.

[ET80]

8 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Honestly, I don't think there was any way the Texans could afford to take Carr.  Especially with how his brother's career turned out.

I've always believed that Carr in Houston would have failed miserably. He'd be living in a shadow he could never get out of.

My prime criticism of O'Brien is how he was asleep at the wheel for pick 33. He and Smith let Minnesota jump him for Bridgewater, and underestimated how badly New England wanted Garropolo.

[CWood21]

1 hour ago, EliteTexan80 said:

My prime criticism of O'Brien is how he was asleep at the wheel for pick 33. He and Smith let Minnesota jump him for Bridgewater, and underestimated how badly New England wanted Garropolo.

I'm not sure anyone anticipated the Patriots drafting a QB in the 2nd round, kinda like nobody expected them to select Jacoby Brissett in the 3rd round either.  As for Bridgewater, it goes back to your evaluation of him.  If you thought he was the game manager type, I have no qualms passing on him.  But if you felt he had the potential to be a franchise QB, then they should have paid the price to move up and select him.

[Pastor Dillon]

OK lets just look at this myth that BOB has had all junk at QB and he isnt to blame

2014 - pre season

Matt Schuab - He takes over a team with Matt Schaub as the QB coming off a "Wheels fell off" kind of year. After saying he had spoken to Schuab and had a good talk with him, we traded him to the Raiders for a 6th round pick. No big deal

Ryan Fitzpatrick - He is signed and named the starter well before training camp, despite Case Kennan being on the roster with starting experience. Fitzpatrick was BOB's starter going into the season. 

Ryan Mallet - Despite naming Fitzpatrick starter in June, the texans traded a pick to the Patriots to get Ryan Mallett right before the season started. Again a guy that BOB had been around in New England. He was in his mid 20s and had been thought of as a potential long term option by a lot teams after serving 2013 as Brady's number 2

Case Keenum - This guy was waived by texans to make room for Mallet and ended up on the Rams practice squad

2014 - Season

Fitzpatrick started most of the season, but when he struggled, Mallet was finally given his chance to be the guy. He looked ok until injury ended his season, and back to Fitzpatrick we turned. Fitzpatrick had the game of his life and then he went out with injury. In came Tom Savage who got his feelings hurt and was out for the season. Back comes Case Keenum from the rams practice squad to finish out the season.

 

2015 - Pre-Season

Fitzpatrick is traded to the Jets where he has the best season of his career. 

Keenum moves on and in comes Brian Hoyer, another guy that BOB knew from New England. Hoyer, just like Fitzpatrick signs a 2 year deal with the Texans. We get the battle of two of Bradys back ups and 2 guys BOB knew really well in Mallett vs Hoyer. Boy this was a fun ride wasnt it???

2015 season

Hoyer starts week 1. Gets benched week 1. Mallett misses practice over losing the QB competition. Mallett is starter for week 2. Week 5 Mallett gets benched and Hoyer is back in the line up. Hoyer starts the rest of the season, with a little TJ Yates and Branden Weeden sprinkled in while Tom Savage enjoys IR Island Retreat. Hoyer implodes in the playoffs. Meanwhile Mallett misses a team flight and then is released mid season.

 

2016 Pre-Season

Hoyer is released by the Texans

Brock Osweiler is signed for 4 years 72 million.

Finally the Texans have their QB. Well, no need to hash out how this one went down.

 

so just to recap the "Myth" That BOB hasnt had his guy

Fitzpatrick signs for 2 years and is named starter before training camp......sounds like BOB liked him

Ryan Mallett is traded for before the season starts and gets several chances.....sounds like BOB liked him

Brian Hoyer is signed for 2 years and plays round about with the starting job.....sounds like BOB liked him

Savage was drafted in the 4th round and has been given a chance and cant stay healthy.....sounds like BOB liked him

 

So I dont buy the idea that BOB hasnt gotten "his guy" at QB. We wouldnt have traded for Mallett and signed Hoyer, both guys he knew in New England unless BOB was pushing for it. 

 

 

what about he Myth that the team sucked?

2-14 in 2013, thats really bad right? 14 straight loses is historic. We all remember that season, it was a disaster where everything that could go wrong went wrong. But did BOB inherit a true 2-14 team talent wise? We know the Texans were 22-10 the previous 2 years. What about the 2013 squad.....well...lets see who we had

*Pro Bowl Arian Foster(1400 yards)

* WRs Hopkins(1200) and Johnson(900)

* JJ Watt - ManBeast

*Pro Bowl Center Chris Myers

*Pro Bowl LT Duane Brown

*Pro Bowl Linebacker Brian Cushing

*Pro Bowl CB Jonathan Joseph 

So lets stop the mess that we didnt have a good team when he took over. it was a really good team, probably the best 2-14 roster ever. 

 

So bottom line is that BOB took a team that had a crazy strange season, but had a solid roster. He has been given several chances to bring in a QB to play his system. Every QB he has tried has failed miserably. 

Our offense in 2013 ranked 11th in yards

under BOB its been

2014 - 17th

2015 - 19th

2016 - 29th

and if you want to look just at PPG, our 2-14 team in 2013 scored 17.3 and last years team scored 17.4

 

 

There are no more excuses. BOB has had 3 full seasons, this is his last chance to get it right. If he cant put an offense out there with the ability to score 30 points at least once in a season, then he has to go. 

 

 

 

[ET80]

53 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

 

Lot of words, but no sense being made. Let's begin, shall we?

53 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

so just to recap the "Myth" That BOB hasnt had his guy

Fitzpatrick signs for 2 years and is named starter before training camp......sounds like BOB liked him

Ryan Mallett is traded for before the season starts and gets several chances.....sounds like BOB liked him

Brian Hoyer is signed for 2 years and plays round about with the starting job.....sounds like BOB liked him

Savage was drafted in the 4th round and has been given a chance and cant stay healthy.....sounds like BOB liked him

So, which one of those names screams "franchise QB" to you? Fitzpatrick, the failed Bills QB who was on his 5th team in Houston? Keenum, the plucky undrafted guy who started the majority of that 14 game losing streak? Mallett, a guy you dealt a 7th round pick for? Hoyer, the Browns castaway? Which one of these names legitimately sounds like a guy they deemed as a franchise QB? No, each of these guys were seen as journeymen QBs which is why they didn't get large multi year deals with monster signing bonuses. 

The only one that was ever viewed as a potential franchise guy was Osweiler, and O'Brien didn't even have a chance to talk with him before the organization pulled the trigger with that signing - so unless O'Brien has the authority to issue out legal contracts on behalf of the Texans, I don't think he was the one who vetted that guy out.

So, let's move onto that 2-14 season, shall we?

53 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

*Pro Bowl Arian Foster(1400 yards)

Rushed for 1,200 yards in 13 games in 2014. Very good, but injury prone. We've heard this story before. Injured in 2015, cut that following offseason. If this was a stock, the trendline of Foster was going down after one season, and BOB got as much as he could out of Foster before his body gave out.

53 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

WRs Hopkins(1200) and Johnson(900)

Same story for Johnson. This was a man who had back-to-back-to-back 1,500 yard seasons and you're pimping out 900 yards from him as if that's an accomplishment. It's not. Again - trendline down. But BOB got something out of him, and walked from him the following year, where he really showed his age as a Colt.

Won't argue Hopkins. You're right, asset.

53 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

Pro Bowl Center Chris Myers

He played a season, then was cut, then retired when nobody gave him a call. Trending? You got it. Downward.

53 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

Pro Bowl LT Duane Brown

Agreed, asset.

53 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

JJ Watt - ManBeast

Agreed, asset.

53 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

Pro Bowl Linebacker Brian Cushing

Get OUT of here with this one. The Cushing decline started in 2011 during the Kubiak era. That man is an injury prone liability in coverage, which is why we burned two 2nd round picks over the past for years on his replacements (McKinney, Cunningham). Just because he WAS a Pro Bowler doesn't mean that he's a dependable asset. Pretty much after 2012, he was just a guy. Emotional leader, great locker room presence, but trending downward due to his knees being shot to hell. 

53 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

Pro Bowl CB Jonathan Joseph

He's a lesser Cushing. But, I'll give this one to you (mostly because you missed Kareem Jackson, who is the better player).

So, you have Hopkins, Brown on offense and a bunch of guys who were basically out of the league within a year. You have Watt, a broken Cushing, a broken Joseph and Jackson.

That's not BAD. But don't make it seem like it's good. Watt is a unique talent and Hopkins is a top 5 talent at his position. You have a solid CB tandem. You have the makings of a really good defense (which, you know - it is really good). The offense was something you had to basically start from scratch. 

The old saying goes - you're as good as your record indicates. And the age and injuries of this team says that it would lose 14 in a row.

53 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

Our offense in 2013 ranked 11th in yards

under BOB its been

2014 - 17th

2015 - 19th

2016 - 29th

and if you want to look just at PPG, our 2-14 team in 2013 scored 17.3 and last years team scored 17.4

You tried to go PPG, but stopped. Means you found something that hurt your argument...

2014 - 14th (23.3 PPG)

2015 - 21st (21.2 PPG)

2016 - 28th (17.4 PPG)

We can all agree the rankings go down, but looking at the numbers the difference between Y1 and Y2 is roughly 2.1 points/game (roughly 11 field goals over the season). Y3 is the anomaly, and I don't think you'll find anyone who'd suggest that last year's offense was anything short of abysmal.

Ironically - 16.7, 23.7, 22.9 - are the PPG outputs of Gary "exciting football" Kubiak's offenses in his first three years as HC. Not too different overall, I'd say. But hey, can't really knock the excitement of a shotgun draw on 3rd and 15 like those good ol' Kubiak days.

53 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

There are no more excuses. BOB has had 3 full seasons, this is his last chance to get it right. If he cant put an offense out there with the ability to score 30 points at least once in a season, then he has to go

So if he goes 14-2 with an average PPG of 19.5 with a defense that gives up 14.5, and he takes us to the AFCCG, he should get fired?

I figured out the problem. You're too busy playing Madden. You think numbers define the performance, trying to look at a single stat in a vacuum. 

Football doesn't work like that.

[Pastor Dillon]

13 minutes ago, EliteTexan80 said:

Lot of words, but no sense being made. Let's begin, shall we?

So, which one of those names screams "franchise QB" to you? Fitzpatrick, the failed Bills QB who was on his 5th team in Houston? Keenum, the plucky undrafted guy who started the majority of that 14 game losing streak? Mallett, a guy you dealt a 7th round pick for? Hoyer, the Browns castaway? Which one of these names legitimately sounds like a guy they deemed as a franchise QB? No, each of these guys were seen as journeymen QBs which is why they didn't get large multi year deals with monster signing bonuses. 

The only one that was ever viewed as a potential franchise guy was Osweiler, and O'Brien didn't even have a chance to talk with him before the organization pulled the trigger with that signing - so unless O'Brien has the authority to issue out legal contracts on behalf of the Texans, I don't think he was the one who vetted that guy out.

So, let's move onto that 2-14 season, shall we?

Rushed for 1,200 yards in 13 games in 2014. Very good, but injury prone. We've heard this story before. Injured in 2015, cut that following offseason. If this was a stock, the trendline of Foster was going down after one season, and BOB got as much as he could out of Foster before his body gave out.

Same story for Johnson. This was a man who had back-to-back-to-back 1,500 yard seasons and you're pimping out 900 yards from him as if that's an accomplishment. It's not. Again - trendline down. But BOB got something out of him, and walked from him the following year, where he really showed his age as a Colt.

Won't argue Hopkins. You're right, asset.

He played a season, then was cut, then retired when nobody gave him a call. Trending? You got it. Downward.

Agreed, asset.

Agreed, asset.

Get OUT of here with this one. The Cushing decline started in 2011 during the Kubiak era. That man is an injury prone liability in coverage, which is why we burned two 2nd round picks over the past for years on his replacements (McKinney, Cunningham). Just because he WAS a Pro Bowler doesn't mean that he's a dependable asset. Pretty much after 2012, he was just a guy. Emotional leader, great locker room presence, but trending downward due to his knees being shot to hell. 

He's a lesser Cushing. But, I'll give this one to you (mostly because you missed Kareem Jackson, who is the better player).

So, you have Hopkins, Brown on offense and a bunch of guys who were basically out of the league within a year. You have Watt, a broken Cushing, a broken Joseph and Jackson.

That's not BAD. But don't make it seem like it's good. Watt is a unique talent and Hopkins is a top 5 talent at his position. You have a solid CB tandem. You have the makings of a really good defense (which, you know - it is really good). The offense was something you had to basically start from scratch. 

The old saying goes - you're as good as your record indicates. And the age and injuries of this team says that it would lose 14 in a row.

You tried to go PPG, but stopped. Means you found something that hurt your argument...

2014 - 14th (23.3 PPG)

2015 - 21st (21.2 PPG)

2016 - 28th (17.4 PPG)

We can all agree the rankings go down, but looking at the numbers the difference between Y1 and Y2 is roughly 2.1 points/game (roughly 11 field goals over the season). Y3 is the anomaly, and I don't think you'll find anyone who'd suggest that last year's offense was anything short of abysmal.

Ironically - 16.7, 23.7, 22.9 - are the PPG outputs of Gary "exciting football" Kubiak's offenses in his first three years as HC. Not too different overall, I'd say. But hey, can't really knock the excitement of a shotgun draw on 3rd and 15 like those good ol' Kubiak days.

So if he goes 14-2 with an average PPG of 19.5 with a defense that gives up 14.5, and he takes us to the AFCCG, he should get fired?

I figured out the problem. You're too busy playing Madden. You think numbers define the performance, trying to look at a single stat in a vacuum. 

Football doesn't work like that.

So you basically share numbers that prove we are regressing with BOB and then pick apart my use of numbers.....ok 

leta forget the numbers and let's look at the eye test. The team is terrible in big games. We don't show up to play. BOB hasn't been any worse than Kubiak in this regard but he's definitely not any better. We lose prime time games and we lose to better teams. Statistically speaking we should accidently upset a team every now and then. 

Case and point: playing New England starting thier rookie 3rd string QB on Thursday Night Football. We get blown out badly. 

 

Another eye test, how many times have we heard the rumblings of BOB losing the lockeroom and having issues with various players. It happens every year, we saw first hand on Hard Knocks how he treats the players, like it's a college program. 

 

We are still trending down. So far the horrid AFC South has kept us relevant but eventually the Colts, Titans and Jags are gonna get better. 

 

For the record i don't just dislike BOB, I want the entire front office gone as well. 

[ET80]

12 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

So you basically share numbers that prove we are regressing with BOB and then pick apart my use of numbers.....ok 

My point was never that it wasn't regressing. There are various levels of regression, and given the rotation at various positions on offense, it's expected. My stance was - and has been - that this offense hasn't been as stocked with talent as you're making it out to be and the regression is evidence of that, not because we have an incompetent coach.

16 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

leta forget the numbers and let's look at the eye test. The team is terrible in big games. We don't show up to play. BOB hasn't been any worse than Kubiak in this regard but he's definitely not any better. We lose prime time games and we lose to better teams. Statistically speaking we should accidently upset a team every now and then. 

Case and point: playing New England starting thier rookie 3rd string QB on Thursday Night Football. We get blown out badly. 

I'll play devil's advocate, because I agree with you in this respect. What I will say that goes back to both the numbers and eye test - 9-3 in weeks 14-17 during the O'Brien era. Given our track record of faltering late in past seasons, this is a revelation, 3-1 in crunch time each year, when the team needs to win to continue on to the post season.

I'll give you the slow start and the poor prime time performances, but you give me the sterling record in December, when this team usually falls apart.

20 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

Another eye test, how many times have we heard the rumblings of BOB losing the lockeroom and having issues with various players. It happens every year, we saw first hand on Hard Knocks how he treats the players, like it's a college program. 

I've only heard of one instance, when Mallett was put into the lineup after one bad half of football from Hoyer. This is where I actually earned the most respect for O'Brien - he actually admitted he made a mistake. 

For someone in a leadership position, admitting fault is a huge step. This goes beyond football - CEOs, Executive Vice Presidents, etc very rarely do this. To keep it to a football context, have you ever heard Rick Smith take blame for any FA or draft bust? Bob or Cal McNair? Heck, Joel Osteen is the "CEO" of a church that is being slammed in the media right now for their non-active approach during Hurricane Harvey, is he taking personal responsibility for such a colossal mistake on his organization? No, he's deflecting blame elsewhere.They point blame downstream, wash their hands of it. BOB - for all his flaws - sat the 53 down, said "that's on me, I own this" and moved forward. It was perhaps the one redeeming quality of Kubiak in his time here, and BOB has it as well.

27 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

We are still trending down. So far the horrid AFC South has kept us relevant but eventually the Colts, Titans and Jags are gonna get better. 

And I'm certain they're just catching up with us. We'll still be in the midst of this, and next season - when Watson walks in as the learned starter, the OL is shored up with some newer bodies, when Foreman is ready as the every day, every down back, when Will Fuller is healthy - we'll be able to increase that gap over Tennessee (because both Indy and Jax are still very far away from us).

30 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

For the record i don't just dislike BOB, I want the entire front office gone as well. 

I think it starts and ends with Rick Smith. BOB has a say in the folly, but if you want a New England model, you don't employ a Denver GM.

[Pastor Dillon]

There was then Mallett issue, but there was also an issue with Brock Osweiler as well. Lots of reports of him in shouting matches with Brock and so on. There were also reports of him losing the lockeroom for sticking with Brock so long. 

 

And the the lack of talent arguement only goes so far. Eventually it falls on the coach to develop players. 

 

Back to the whole point of this thread, I suspect O'Brian wanted to give the job to savage because he knows he's in the hot seat and Savage is his last chance to prove he's a QB Guru. There are no excuses. He's BOBs guy, has been in the system forever and he "beat out" superstar Deshaun Watson. 

Ill give him this season to prove himself but anything less than 10 wins should send him to the door

[ET80]

40 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

There was then Mallett issue, but there was also an issue with Brock Osweiler as well. Lots of reports of him in shouting matches with Brock and so on. There were also reports of him losing the lockeroom for sticking with Brock so long. 

I think most of the locker room sided with O'Brien on this. It's probably why guys such as Hopkins is firmly behind Tom Savage, despite his alumni QB waiting in the wings. Osweiler reeks of a Smith/Cal production - just the feel of it all was an Ed Reed-esque cluster.

40 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

And the the lack of talent arguement only goes so far. Eventually it falls on the coach to develop players.

I'm not going to fully disagree with this, but - how much can you develop guys like Cecil Shorts III, Nate Washington, Jon Grimes or Akeem Hunt? 

I'll put the continued delays on Susan Sua-Filo on O'Brien, but the gradual emergence of CJ Fidorowitz? Gotta give him credit for that. Right?

40 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

Back to the whole point of this thread, I suspect O'Brian wanted to give the job to savage because he knows he's in the hot seat and Savage is his last chance to prove he's a QB Guru. There are no excuses. He's BOBs guy, has been in the system forever and he "beat out" superstar Deshaun Watson. 

I'm not going to go this far. Savage earned a shot, had a possibility to lose the job - and didn't do anything to lose it. For as much as I want to see Watson start, he didn't do nearly enough to earn it either. Had either instance happened - Savage played poorly or Watson blew it out of the park - I'd be completely on your side. None of that happened.

40 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

Ill give him this season to prove himself but anything less than 10 wins should send him to the door

I'm not willing to go that far. There would be a hotter seat with a 9-7, won't disagree. Honestly, if we went 10-6, BUT went 4-2 in the division, I'd also want the seat to be hotter. But it would take a significant dropoff (6-10 or worse) for me to consider firing him.

Call me in the minority, I guess. But I highly doubt that anything less than 10-6 is in the cards. The run game should be much more improved with Foreman and Miller, and while the passing game won't be exciting, it will be effective - which is all we need.

[UKTexans]

20 hours ago, EliteTexan80 said:

Again, not saying he's Lombardi incarnate, but he's not Chip Kelly.

Like I said, I'm in the middle, could do better, could do worse. 

But the failings are building up and I don't think we can use Kubiak as a reason to give him a longer leash. 

[ET80]

1 hour ago, texans_uk said:

Like I said, I'm in the middle, could do better, could do worse. 

But the failings are building up and I don't think we can use Kubiak as a reason to give him a longer leash. 

I guess this is fair. I also think we have different definitions of failures. 

Honestly, I'm in the middle as well. Is there better? Probably. Not sure who (Dabo Swinney comes to mind, but that's with zero thought behind it outside of the Clemson connection) but there's someone who could do a better job.

But believe me when I say there is MUCH worse.