jimkelly02 Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 13 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: I want a defense that can't be "outrun" anywhere. I keep flashing back to the 28 point 2nd quarter vs KC. I never want to see anything like that ever again. Randall and the LB corps will help. As will Abram. But we need another fluid speedy boundary CB and 2 more secondary players waiting in the wings if we're being honest for me to feel good. I feel like no matter who went ave there will always be instances where we get outrun by KC..:. The whole league gets outrun.... all you can do is limit it...... kinda why I’d trade for Malik Hooker if they’ll take a 4th..... range at FS even with Randall already would help. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 34 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said: I feel like no matter who went ave there will always be instances where we get outrun by KC..:. The whole league gets outrun.... all you can do is limit it...... kinda why I’d trade for Malik Hooker if they’ll take a 4th..... range at FS even with Randall already would help. They won't. I wish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimkelly02 Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 1 hour ago, MrOaktown_56 said: I respect this opinion, but I haven't seen anything to justify it. Nixon COULD be a good slot corner, but we don't know for sure. Nelson was a nice college prospect but I didn't really see a ton out of him when he got snaps in 2018. I think Robertson is nasty with great instincts and balls skills and is a starting slot from day 1 if he gets snaps. It's how highly I think of him as a player. But yeah I'd be fine with Dennard too. But if guys start falling in the secondary, we need guys who we can be excited about. If Robertson is gone, I don't see any slots who I'd bang the table for. It wont kill us not to add him, like you said (unlike boundary CB and WR1), but Mayock was talking about adding "future value" and Robertson could be a good example of that. I think he may surprise and go mid-late 2nd, which I think would be a slight overdraft. Just to clairify.... I think Robertson is pretty good. He’s the only sCB in the draft a I like and would draft. (Vildor is okay... I’d consider him but don’t see him being substantially better than Nixon/Nelson). I don’t care for Holmes. Guidry as a 6-7 is intriguing but he’s really all speed and little skill. reid and hill are okay in 7th too but their not better than Nixon/Nelson so what’s the point? imreally like Reggie Robinson as a mid round outside CB. I seriously question Robertson ousting Joyner to start and in fact I think he wouldn’t get THAT much PT. And again how much better is he than Nixon/Nelson? at 91 I’d take him but there’s bigger needs like RB and SAM (Akers and Harrison at 80/81 please) although I’m Lee’s biggest supporter. But Lee’s on his last year of his deal too, so along term SAM is a need as well. I think we could wait til ‘21 to draft someone if he goes before 91. He never wasn’t in my board. My issue is other priorities not Robertson as a prospect. I also think some people (not you at all) just are infatuated with Robertson to the point of way over hyping him. He’s not perfect as a prospect even for a sCB. He has some flaws. But again I do really like him... just at a reasonable level. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakdb36 Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 We, the fans, don't know what we have in Nixon. Nelson spent last season on the PS so i don't think he's someone that'd stop us from drafting a NB. He's already a long shot to make the final roster before we add anyone. As for needs, we have 4 picks between 80 and 121 at this point so using one of those on NB doesn't stop us from adressing other positions in that range. There are many options with those 4 picks and NB is definitely a possibility. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightTrainLane Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 1 hour ago, jimkelly02 said: I seriously question Robertson ousting Joyner to start and in fact I think he wouldn’t get THAT much PT. And again how much better is he than Nixon/Nelson? at 91 I’d take him but there’s bigger needs like RB and SAM (Akers and Harrison at 80/81 please) although I’m Lee’s biggest supporter. But Lee’s on his last year of his deal too, so along term SAM is a need as well. Felt like you were in my brain when I read this paragraph. All except I go back and forth on Akers in the 3rd or waiting to grab Moss or Dillon later. I love them both for different reasons. but both can be short yardage backs and can carry the load if something happens to Jacobs. Moss is really growing on me. no pun intended. his lower body strength is redic. Watch his combine tape haha. Dillon for obvious reasons fits as a counter to Jacobs. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dessie Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, NYRaider said: I think an overall career is more indicative of how good a player is rather than a single year, in a new system, on a bad defense. Between 2014-2018, a 5 year period, Joyner was one of the best safeties/nicklebacks in the league. Statistics prove that. He wasn't very good last year but I'm still not going to say he sucks as a player because we've seen him play at a very high level for 5 years on one of the best teams in the league and he's only 29. But I wouldn't expect Raider fans to understand that. Because Carr was really good for 1 year out of 6 and for whatever reason people here still think he's a borderline elite player. Funny how you use Carr as a comparison. Joyners stats show that he has had 1 really good year in 2017, the rest has been average or below average. You are really stretching the point that he has played at a high level over those 5 years. coverage stats 14.45.6 15. 62.4 16. 78.4 17. 91.3 18. 71.2 19. 42.8 Conveniently you are referring to his average which is skewed by 2017 where of course he played FS which he doesn’t play here. He is 29yo coming off 2 down years but you think he’s one of the best nickelbacks in the league. If that’s your standard, I’ll leave it there. Edited April 22, 2020 by Dessie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Dessie said: He is 29yo coming off 2 down years but you think he’s one of the best nickelbacks in the league. I’ll leave it there. I said he was an above average player at the position. What do those numbers you posted even mean? I've posted numerous times about how he graded out as one of the best safeties and the 20th best player in the league covering the slot between 2014-2018. Quote Digging deeper from seasons 2014 to 2018, Joyner has produced a 72.7 grade when covering the slot, 20th among all defensive backs, and he has allowed a passer rating of 89.4 which is the second-best mark among qualifying safeties. Along with Joyner’s 25.0 percent forced incompletion rate, he’s also produced a 12.9 percent forced incompletion rate when defending the slot, by far the best among safeties since 2006. Already among the best in coverage, Joyner is also one of the soundest tackling safeties in the NFL. Over the past two seasons, he’s only recorded nine misses on 156 tackle attempts, and he ranks fourth among qualifying safeties in that span in missed tackle percentage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 4 minutes ago, Dessie said: Funny how you use Carr as a comparison. Joyners stats show that he has had 1 really good year in 2017, the rest has been average or below average. You are really stretching the point that he has played at a high level over those 5 years. Same for Carr. He had one above average year in 2016 and has been below average in 5/6 seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dessie Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 4 minutes ago, NYRaider said: I said he was an above average player at the position. What do those numbers you posted even mean? I've posted numerous times about how he graded out as one of the best safeties and the 20th best player in the league covering the slot between 2014-2018. He won’t grade out that high from 2014-2019, pretty obvious. 3 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Same for Carr. He had one above average year in 2016 and has been below average in 5/6 seasons. So you will say Carr is one of the best QBs in the league then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakdb36 Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 20th best in the slot is good? With his contract, i'd hope he'd be at least top 5. Even if he was playing S for us, we overpaid that one. Can't wait til we fix that mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 7 hours ago, Dessie said: He won’t grade out that high from 2014-2019, pretty obvious. So you will say Carr is one of the best QBs in the league then? He'd still grade out above average though, pretty obvious. 5 good to elite years + 1 bad year. What's the average of that? If I play at a 7, 7, 8, 9, 7, 5, the average is what? 7.1 which is? Above average. Joyner and Carr are like polar opposites actually. Joyner had a good 5 year sample size for a good team and a bad 1 year sample size for a bad team. Carr had a bad 5 year sample size for a bad team and a good 1 year sample size for a good team. You see the difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 7 hours ago, oakdb36 said: 20th best in the slot is good? With his contract, i'd hope he'd be at least top 5. Even if he was playing S for us, we overpaid that one. Can't wait til we fix that mistake. He graded out as one of the top 10 safeties in the league over that time and had the 20th best coverage grade in the slot. That includes players who were strictly slot CB, safeties that covered the slot regularly, and corners who played on the outside and in the slot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dessie Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, NYRaider said: He'd still grade out above average though, pretty obvious. 5 good to elite years + 1 bad year. What's the average of that? If I play at a 7, 7, 8, 9, 7, 5, the average is what? 7.1 which is? Above average. Joyner and Carr are like polar opposites actually. Joyner had a good 5 year sample size for a good team and a bad 1 year sample size for a bad team. Carr had a bad 5 year sample size for a bad team and a good 1 year sample size for a good team. You see the difference? Laughable how you have come with those figures but not unexpected. 5 good to elite years ?? What was good or elite about him in 14-16 ? Joyner has 1 great year in 19, nothing else comes close. Using your method it’s more like 4,6,7,9,7,4. = 6.1 average which is...average. 2 bad years, 3 meh years and a very good year. The 4 years he played slot corner extensively he’s been nowhere near above average. You keep thinking Joyner is above average slot corner, I’ll bear it in mind when you rate players. Edited April 22, 2020 by Dessie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Dessie said: Laughable how you have come with those figures but not unexpected. 5 good to elite years ?? What was good or elite about him in 14-16 ? Joyner has 1 great year in 19, nothing else comes close. Using your method it’s more like 4,6,7,9,7,4. = 6.1 average which is...average. 2 bad years, 3 meh years and a very good year. The 4 years he played slot corner extensively he’s been nowhere near above average. You keep thinking Joyner is above average slot corner, I’ll bear it in mind when you rate players. Why did NFL.com and PFF both have him ranked as a top 15 free agent in 2019 if he's not good? Also LOL at using one random coverage statistic with zero context or explanation of the source or what it means to qualify how good he was in that stretch. Edited April 22, 2020 by NYRaider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dessie Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 3 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Why did NFL.com and PFF both have him ranked as a top 15 free agent in 2019 if he's not good? Also LOL at using one random coverage statistic with zero context or explanation of the source or what it means to qualify how good he was in that stretch. His ranking was based on ‘17 year like you are doing now. Those coverage stats came from PFF the same source you are using lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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