Lebron's legacy !!! ??? !!!

[amac]

3 hours ago, resilient part 2 said:

While everything you said is true the problem is people will talk in definitive manners like there's some sort of factual or scientific proof that someone like Jordan is the greatest when we really have no idea. I think I can make a strong argument that Bill Russell had a greater impact to helping his team win doing the things that he did with his skill-set than Jordan. And yet there's no way to prove it

Yeah I don't know if anyone would dispute that so much as they would argue that Bill played in a far weaker era, and I believe his teams were often pretty loaded for what it's worth

[resilient part 2]

4 minutes ago, amac said:

Yeah I don't know if anyone would dispute that so much as they would argue that Bill played in a far weaker era, and I believe his teams were often pretty loaded for what it's worth

Yes Bill Russell definitely played in a much weaker era and yes he had a loaded team. But one of Bill Russell's greatest assets was that he will do the defensive work and the rebounding work and allow the other players to shine. If Bill Russell was a dominating Low post scorer he may have taken away shots from everyone else there for affecting team chemistry. But his domination came from being able to help all of his teammates out on a defensive end. And that alone may be more valuable than any scoring Jordan may have done that is my point. It's hard to compare a big man's value to a all-around perimeter players value though.

[Chiefs_5627]

2 hours ago, seminoles1 said:

You mean the guy who was the 5th overall pick and had his best season without MJ? Sorry if I don't give credit to MJ for Pippen becoming a great player when everyone expected it.

No I mean the guy who worked out with MJ day and night and became a great player. He didn't come in "great". If you think Pip becomes the player he became without MJ then I guess we agree to disagree.

[Chiefs_5627]

1 hour ago, seminoles1 said:

Kwame Brown.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/hoopshype.com/2017/06/02/kwame-brown-opens-up-about-his-nba-career-facing-criticism-michael-jordan-and-more/amp/

And then, when MJ came back, Coach sent me to the dunker (laughs). But, to be honest with you, I didn’t mind because who doesn’t want to play alongside Michael Jordan? Even if it’s mainly being told, “Go to the dunker.” I always respected MJ and I still do. That’s why I went back to play for him in Charlotte. I think if they handled the PR side of that better, they could’ve made a really cool story out of that. I got to Charlotte, I started playing more and I kicked *** when I was there! I was getting a double-double in two quarters!

[seminoles1]

42 minutes ago, Chiefs_5627 said:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/hoopshype.com/2017/06/02/kwame-brown-opens-up-about-his-nba-career-facing-criticism-michael-jordan-and-more/amp/

And then, when MJ came back, Coach sent me to the dunker (laughs). But, to be honest with you, I didn’t mind because who doesn’t want to play alongside Michael Jordan? Even if it’s mainly being told, “Go to the dunker.” I always respected MJ and I still do. That’s why I went back to play for him in Charlotte. I think if they handled the PR side of that better, they could’ve made a really cool story out of that. I got to Charlotte, I started playing more and I kicked *** when I was there! I was getting a double-double in two quarters!

I stand corrected. I never saw this interview and just remembered the stories of him crying and things like that.

[BStanRamFan]

He's #2 all time and still playing. If he gets a 4th ring with a 3rd team and 3rd Finals MVP, he'll be the GOAT.  Current NBA fans hate his personality for being too whiney and nowadays too political; I share their frustration. Older NBA fans just  to think their era was tougher physically; I also agree. But being as objective as possible, LeBron is #2 all time right now.

 

[seminoles1]

I'm a LeBron fan for the most part and have been since he entered the league. What he's done for player empowerment and the difference he makes off the court is amazing. However, this season has been incredibly frustrating and definitely disappointing when it comes to his attitude. He's always been whiny and holier than thou, but he's coming off worse than ever and his image is taking a hit for me.

His play is declining, but that's to be expected; he's 34 and he has a ridiculous amount of miles in his body for a 40-year-old player, let alone 34. (Anyone holding that against him is fine, but have some context to those  criticisms). His comments these last few weeks have been what's hard to swallow. He's harping on commitment and accountability when he has absolutely no ground to stand on.

And claiming yourself the GOAT is fine and shows confidence, but you better back it up on the court if you're claiming yourself still being the best player in the game and the GOAT. Doing that followed by lackluster play and then following that by putting it on your teammates? Oy.

No one should be questioning what's happened in the past based on this season. Talking about prime Kobe or MJ compared to LeBron now to prop up the other 2 isn't fair and reframes the entire debate. That being said, LeBron put himself in an amplified position to be questioned, harped on, play dissected, and everything else by choosing the Lakers. Everything was fine before his injury, but the last 2 months have eradicated all of his goodwill he built up earlier.

TL;DR: Shut up about your teammates and worry about your own commitment. Anyone making this season about more than that (legacy, GOAT debate, overrated prime) is reaching.

[dtait93]

3 hours ago, BStanRamFan said:

He's #2 all time and still playing. If he gets a 4th ring with a 3rd team and 3rd Finals MVP, he'll be the GOAT.  Current NBA fans hate his personality for being too whiney and nowadays too political; I share their frustration. Older NBA fans just  to think their era was tougher physically; I also agree. But being as objective as possible, LeBron is #2 all time right now.

 

How would 4 rings and 3 Finals MVP's outweigh 6 rings and 6 Finals MVP's?

Jordan has more championships, more Finals MVP's, more regular season MVP's, more All-Defense teams, more scoring titles, a higher PER, and never choked in the Finals (see Dallas 2011).

[seminoles1]

23 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

How would 4 rings and 3 Finals MVP's outweigh 6 rings and 6 Finals MVP's?

Jordan has more championships, more Finals MVP's, more regular season MVP's, more All-Defense teams, more scoring titles, a higher PER, and never choked in the Finals (see Dallas 2011).

Yeah, not sure how that works out. It would be 4 Finals MVPs, though.

LeBron has more stats in the regular season and playoffs (except steals), more All-NBA teams, better TS%, better BPM, etc. Both arguments can go on and on this way. More titles and Finals MVPs is definitely a big tiebreaker in the argument on paper, though. LeBron in 2011 was embarrassing to watch.

[BStanRamFan]

32 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

How would 4 rings and 3 Finals MVP's outweigh 6 rings and 6 Finals MVP's?

Jordan has more championships, more Finals MVP's, more regular season MVP's, more All-Defense teams, more scoring titles, a higher PER, and never choked in the Finals (see Dallas 2011).

Not all Finals are created equal.

 

Also,  4 rings and 4 Finals MVP's vs 6 rings and 6 Finals MVP's can be argued in detail on a larger level where what era you play in, who you played with, non-Finals seasons all come into play. In that discussion, you can have LeBron at 1 and Jordan at 2 or 1A and 1B. My point is, if LeBron gets 4 rings and 4 MVPs, the discussion for him #1 can be taken seriously. Right now, it cannot.

[amac]

My opinion has always been that Jordan's dominance in the postseason gives him the edge, unless Lebron spruces up his resume quite a bit before he retires. If I want one player to build a title winning team around, in a vacuum, I'm taking Jordan. It's not just that MJ won and dominated more consistently, it's also because Lebron had some legitimately poor/passive performances in giant moments. He's made up for them but if the standard he's being compared to is MJ then that needs to be considered

[nlesthought]

Just some random thoughts:

Lebron comparisons should start and end with Magic. Both dominated the ball for their teams one got teammates involved in the half court the other mostly on the break. LBJ is an explosive version of Magic that has excelled in my different faucets of the game. Top 5 non big of all time. 

Jordan took a bulk of the shots but he was asked to do just that. Defend and of course score and when defenses collapsed make the right play. Jordan didn't play with HOF caliber players, Pippen fed off Jordan. If Pippen was drafted 3rd and 4th to Nets or Clippers would he have become a HOF? 

Yes bigs should be in their own category. Wilt/Shaq easily dominated their eras, Russell won but was on HOF superteams. When the mobs determined who played where. Hakeem is the bridge between the old and new big. 

 

[dtait93]

19 minutes ago, seminoles1 said:

Yeah, not sure how that works out. It would be 4 Finals MVPs, though.

LeBron has more stats in the regular season and playoffs (except steals), more All-NBA teams, better TS%, better BPM, etc. Both arguments can go on and on this way. More titles and Finals MVPs is definitely a big tiebreaker in the argument on paper, though. LeBron in 2011 was embarrassing to watch.

Lebron is accumulating more stats because he's played in 150+ more regular and playoff games. Stat accumulation is more of a testament to Lebron's longevity over Jordan's. There's no argument however that Jordan was the better scorer and defender. Lebron is the better rebounder and assister, but I would push back on the notion that players all get better when they play with him.

Bosh' and Love's PER severely dropped after joining Lebron. Wade's PER dropped after joining Lebron. Kyrie's PER has gone up since leaving Lebron. Kuzma, Ingram, Ball, and KCP's PER hasn't moved so far since Lebron joined them. The teams Lebron joined improved (except for this year) because he himself is great, not because he is all of a sudden making everyone better.

[Pastor Dillon]

Jordan is 1, Lebron is in the debate for #2. 

He has obviously had an amazing career, but he has some things going against him. He's left twice to go ring chasing, maybe 3 times, but this 3rd time hasn't worked out very well for him yet. Hes benefited from a weak conference over the last decade. A conference so weak, they dissolved the normal way of playing the all star game. That shows why he is 3-6 in the Finals. 9 finals is impressive, but when talking "GOAT Status" nitpicking is acceptable. 

The big thing that stands out to me about Jordan over Lebron is that Jordan dominated the league for a decade unlike anything else. 6 rings in 8 years, probably would have been 8 in 8 if he didn't take 1 3/4 seasons off. He won 5 MVPs during that time and was straight robbed of another. I know people say Rose robbed Lebron, but Rose was the best player on a team with a better record, so there is at least an argument there. Karl Malone won an MVP over MJ when Jordan won 69 games, lead the league in scoring and was 1st team All D. 

Speaking of Jordan, not many guys are 10x scoring champs and 1st team all defense in 9 of those seasons....plus a DPOY award. Jordan was winning finals against prime Stockton/Malone, Peyton/Kemp, Prime Barkley, Prime Drexler....Lebron was beating the baby trio of the Thunder and the old men Spurs. Ill give him his credit for those, and really the 3-1 comeback against the warriors was the most epic moment of his career. But benefitting from  a weak eastern conference and then losing 4-0 twice, 4-1 twice really sting. Once again this is nit picking but we are talking GOAT. we arent comparing Lebron to Dirk or Paul Pierce, though Dirk did beat him and Paul Pierce helped send him to Miami to form a super team . 

[dtait93]

1 hour ago, BStanRamFan said:

Not all Finals are created equal.

 

Also,  4 rings and 4 Finals MVP's vs 6 rings and 6 Finals MVP's can be argued in detail on a larger level where what era you play in, who you played with, non-Finals seasons all come into play. In that discussion, you can have LeBron at 1 and Jordan at 2 or 1A and 1B. My point is, if LeBron gets 4 rings and 4 MVPs, the discussion for him #1 can be taken seriously. Right now, it cannot.

Yes they are. It's not like Lebron has 2 1/2 rings for beating OKC when Durant, Westbrook, and Harden were all 22-23, and it's also not like he has 3 1/2 rings for beating a 73 win team.

I would love to compare the teams Jordan beat to the teams Lebron beat. Those teams Jordan faced were a lot better than bafoons such as Colin Cowherd would lead you to believe. But how can 4 rings and 4 Finals MVP's elevate Lebron past Jordan who has 6 rings and 6 MVP's after you account for all 6 of Lebron's Finals losses that included that meltdown against Dallas? That was genuinely horrible.

In any matter, his legacy is going to take a huge ding this year. If he misses the playoffs then everyone who said he's only been to 8 consecutive Finals because he plays in the "Leastern Conference" will be validated. If he makes the playoffs it will likely be the 8th and he will lose to the Warriors and not only will his Leastern Conference critics be validated but his, "unbeatable in the first round" argument will also go flying out the window.