Calvert28 Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Deadpulse said: Say what you will about TLJ, he left it wide open to do pretty much WHATEVER you wanted with Kylo as the big bad and a rag tag bunch with the potential for large growth with the resistance. Going back to Abrams might have been a mistake, but I havent seen it yet sooo we shall see I would have been more hyped about Kylo if he was an actual force to be reckoned with. But he really hasnt been presented that way, just a kid with force powers who throws tantrums. I agree, he left it open ended for something to be done but Kylo was so uninspiring at the end of the film. He just didnt really progress at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonStark Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Calvert28 said: I know a bunch of paid articles came out after the backlash trying to save face with small little tidbits saying many people hated ESB too which just wasnt true. Guess what Im friends with older generations too. People who loved hoarding old news papers from when Elvis became famous or even before that when Hiroshima happened. Both audience and critics alike were largely mixed in their opinions of the film. That is a fact, if ESB received the same type of backlash that TLJ from fans with its fledgling fanbase, more then likely George Lucas would not have been able to find the funding to do ROTJ. You just said if ESB was released today it would have faced the same backlash which is laughably short sighted. Again Star Wars back then didnt have the fanbase it does now, nor did it have the nostagilia or interest back then that it did now. It was still growing in that span of time so I fail to see how thats helping your point. If the fanbase is still growing then there are not going to be that many fans which that much interest and emotional investment to really go after it hard like people were doing with TLJ regardless of social media. So again you're comparing two completely different situations, the only similarities TLJ has from ESB are the things it tried to copy from ESB. For example there are movies and TV shows now with a growing fan base that either get launched into mainstream heavy popularity or they die off because the audiance didnt like the direction or story telling that happened with the series. Lets go with TV shows real quick. Game of Thrones- Largely remained unappealing to the masses until the 4th season, developed with the gripes that the producers were making without the source material and it didnt really face backlash until the 8th season when everyone and their mother was talking about it. Thats because it developed years of fan base loyalty and interest from the masses over the course of two and a half decades. It HAD the interest and the fan investment to warrant the backlash. Now lets try another show that started out popular but died out without such heavy backlash. Heroes- Started out with massive success in its first season, it was supposed to be the next big thing on television. Was developing a strong following with fans all over Myspace, Facebook and such at the time. Then came the dismal season 2 which started out well then gradually fell off in writing, there was alot of dislike for it. Then came season 3 then 4, then it pretty much died with a whimper after that. Backlash was minimal even with the massive plot holes and contradictions in the story because at that point, even though it had a fan base it was largely forgotten about because not that many people cared about it anymore. It just stopped being interesting and there wasnt that much to keep people interested from previous works. Its lack of fanbase and interest meant it did not warrant the backlash because no one really cared about it at that point anymore. Wasn't trying to get into a "I know more older people than you do" spat, just saying that's where my information came from, and I'll take their opinions over your "facts". You're either missing the entire point or playing dumb. The amount of backlash obviously isn't the same (because of the larger fan base, social media, higher expectations), but the level of criticism is. The ratio of happy/angry fans after the movies' release is similar whether you want to admit it or not and those factors listed are only why the criticism is louder than it was in 1980. Some people hated Luke and Vader being related and some loved it (just like how some hate Luke in TLJ and, even though you didn't, some love it). Honestly the better question is why is it so important for you to continually trash the movie and anyone who enjoyed it two years later? Actually, nevermind that. I'm going to go back to avoiding this thread like the plague. Edited December 19, 2019 by JonStark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 55 minutes ago, Calvert28 said: With? Your refusal to believe that Jar Jar Binks was the Phantom Menace. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calvert28 Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, JonStark said: Wasn't trying to get into a "I know more older people than you do" spat, just saying that's where my information came from, and I'll take their opinions over your "facts". You're either missing the entire point or playing dumb. The amount of backlash obviously isn't the same (because of the larger fan base, social media, higher expectations), but the level of criticism is. The ratio of happy/angry fans after the movies' release is similar whether you want to admit it or not and those factors listed are only why the criticism is louder than it was in 1980. Some people hated Luke and Vader being related and some loved it (just like how some hate Luke in TLJ and, even though you didn't, some love it). No i dont think you get the point. For all those things it didnt have back in that are in bold, it is not possible for it to have gotten anywhere near the bad reviews (which it didnt get) or bashing (also another thing that was little to minimal) which means you cant compare the two situations at all. Again, if it got the type of backlash as you were suggesting with as much as we've seen Solo and others affected by it. It's unlikely Lucas would have found enough support for the 3rd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calvert28 Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 6 minutes ago, Outpost31 said: Your refusal to believe that Jar Jar Binks was the Phantom Menace. I acknowledged a few pages ago! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naptownskinsfan Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 5 hours ago, Fl0nkerton said: So what happens once those kids grow up and aren't buying the toys anymore? Who is supporting the franchise then? There are tons of videos that track the sale of toys and how down they were for TLJ compared to TFA, and track the percentages they were down as well. Of course, a lot of those videos are from the crowd that say that feminism is killing Star Wars, which is not a take I agree with, but I do buy into the numbers they present on the toys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadpulse Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 45 minutes ago, Calvert28 said: I would have been more hyped about Kylo if he was an actual force to be reckoned with. But he really hasnt been presented that way, just a kid with force powers who throws tantrums. I agree, he left it open ended for something to be done but Kylo was so uninspiring at the end of the film. He just didnt really progress at all. Was he though? He outwitted his Master and took control of the most powerful fighting force in the galaxy. He's no Vader, but I like the way they play with his morality. He isnt just a straight villain, he is a bad guy you root for almost. I like the non-binary take, it makes it less good vs evil and more character driven. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadpulse Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 1 minute ago, naptownskinsfan said: So what happens once those kids grow up and aren't buying the toys anymore? Who is supporting the franchise then? More kids get made everyday. Before TFA was even announced I had friends with kids who werent alive when RotS came out who still live and die Star Wars. Plus you have shows like Clone Wars and Rebels getting kids hooked. With streaming, those shows will be nearly eternal. Not sure "getting new generations hooked" is super important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naptownskinsfan Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Deadpulse said: More kids get made everyday. Before TFA was even announced I had friends with kids who werent alive when RotS came out who still live and die Star Wars. Plus you have shows like Clone Wars and Rebels getting kids hooked. With streaming, those shows will be nearly eternal. Not sure "getting new generations hooked" is super important. It's more of realizing who your base is, and the base of the Star Wars fan group are also parents who are going to buy the toys for their kids. If they've sworn off Star Wars, their kids won't be watching it, and they won't be buying the toys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadpulse Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said: If they've sworn off Star Wars, their kids won't be watching it, and they won't be buying the toys. LOL, do you have kids? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calvert28 Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 3 minutes ago, Deadpulse said: Was he though? He outwitted his Master and took control of the most powerful fighting force in the galaxy. He's no Vader, but I like the way they play with his morality. He isnt just a straight villain, he is a bad guy you root for almost. I like the non-binary take, it makes it less good vs evil and more character driven. His confliction would be more interesting had it been him from the beginning IMO. Since Snoke served no real purpose other then being a stepping stone they could have just as easily made a council of Grand Moff from the old Empire or soemthing then have Kylo take power. I mean besides killing Han, he really hasnt done anything noteworthy yet. Hux has most definitely, Snoke was pretty much a worthless character. Had it actually gave Ren the position to commit the atrocities we've only heard about and put them on screen he would have been a far more interesting character I think. Oh well 3 more hours and I will get to see for myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naptownskinsfan Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, Deadpulse said: LOL, do you have kids? No, but I don;t need to. If the kids aren't exposed to something, which usually happens by the parents, what is their want for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fl0nkerton Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 wait I thought people were angry about the porgs being an obvious cash grab to sell toys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadpulse Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, Calvert28 said: Since Snoke served no real purpose other then being a stepping stone they could have just as easily made a council of Grand Moff from the old Empire or soemthing then have Kylo take power. I don't think it would mean as much if he just slaughtered a bunch of non-force users. Killing Snoke, a clear cut baddie, allowed them to keep the ambiguity of his morality and its a more impressive feat. It is a far departure from Abhram's "I want to be like Vader" narrative, especially since it was obvious that killing daddy Solo was supposed to be his conflict resolved moment hence the "time to complete your training". Rian preferred to keep him in the struggle, which I like better but I dont think it was the original intention there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadpulse Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 3 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said: No, but I don;t need to. If the kids aren't exposed to something, which usually happens by the parents, what is their want for them? .... you dont have kids so you don't know this but Parents dont have as much control to what they are exposed to as you think. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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