Iamcanadian Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 6 hours ago, AkronsWitness said: This all comes down to one thing and that is how big of a gap in 2 years do you think there is between Kizer and Wentz. Is the gap between Kizer and Wentz: Corey Coleman Shone Coleman Jabrill Peppers Derrick Kindred Ricardo Louis + 1st rd pick from HOU For arguments sake lets just say Kizer turns out to be a B level starting QB (Alex Smith) and Wentz goes on to be a A level QB (Matt Stafford). Though obviously this could change and is pure speculation. Quote For more likely Kizer turns out to be a career backup QB, with luck, a Hoyer??? The early returns from Corey Coleman, Jabril Peppers and Derrick Kindred let alone Shon Coleman as well show that isnt nearly a big enough gap to say the Eagles 'won' the trade. Now, lets say that Houston 1st rounder turns out to be Saquon Barkley because the Texans are looking trash. Would you rather have Peppers, Kindred, Coleman, Barkley and Alex Smith or Matt Stafford. Quote I think the gap is already huge and will get even bigger by next season. Of course, by then the Browns will have used their own high 1st rounder on a real franchise QB in the 2018 draft. 6 hours ago, AkronsWitness said: If Peppers turns out to be the second coming of Earl Thomas (which it looks there is a good chance of that happening) then you take Kizer/Peppers alone over Wentz and that doesnt even factor in the other 5 young talents you have that could become Pro Bowl level players. I like Peppers a lot, but he is no Earl Thomas??? I just love how a lot of Browns' fans rank the potential of their picks with top 10 guys or even 1st overall picks like Smith and Stafford. Peppers went very late in round 1, not top 10. Kizer went second round and his ceiling is closer to a Dalton than the guys you are praying he will compare to??? From what we have seen so far from Wentz, Smith and Stafford is the minimum he will become, but his ceiling is even higher than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iamcanadian Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 7 hours ago, AkronsWitness said: Add Andrew Luck to that list. Steve Young and Luck were playing on SB contending teams when they got hurt. I will give you Couch, but Carr was a flop right from the start??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Roshi Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Iamcanadian said: I like Peppers a lot, but he is no Earl Thomas??? I just love how a lot of Browns' fans rank the potential of their picks with top 10 guys or even 1st overall picks like Smith and Stafford. Peppers went very late in round 1, not top 10. Kizer went second round and his ceiling is closer to a Dalton than the guys you are praying he will compare to??? From what we have seen so far from Wentz, Smith and Stafford is the minimum he will become, but his ceiling is even higher than that. Kizer having the same ceiling as Dalton because he was picked in the same round is the worst kind of analysis. Derek Carr was picked in the second round too... which doesn't mean anything to the conversation. Players' value fluctuate well past handing the card in. A re-draft now would certainly have Kizer going in the first. He's 21 years old, ideal height, can make all the throws. I'm not saying that he's going to be the best QB ever, but the round he was picked in will have no bearing to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 8 hours ago, Thomas5737 said: That isn't how a trade comparison works. You can use that as an Eagle fan to show that all of the moves added up to a total but the pick they received from the Vikings was never something that the Browns gave them in the deal. You got #2 overall and a 4th. If you traded that 4th for a 3rd the following yeah you can use that. If you traded that 4th for a backup QB you can use that. You can't use a pick you got in a trade from a player that was already on your roster. Unless of course we get to use Garrett because if we would have took Wentz we would have won 3 games and wouldn't have been able to select him. I think you have to include it since the acquisition of Wentz allowed the Eagles to move Sam Bradford. Do the Eagles make the Sam Bradford trade if they decided not to trade up for Carson Wentz? I think the answer is no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 1 minute ago, CWood21 said: I think you have to include it since the acquisition of Wentz allowed the Eagles to move Sam Bradford. Do the Eagles make the Sam Bradford trade if they decided not to trade up for Carson Wentz? I think the answer is no. That is for the trade with the Vikings comparison. A QB with an 18-15 TD to INT ratio and Barnett vs. a QB with a 23-5 ratio. You just can't include picks you get from other teams and include them in a specific trade comparison unless you acquired them from the original trade. The Eagles didn't turn the #2 pick or the 4th round pick into Barnett. They turned Bradford who was no part of the Browns into that pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said: That is for the trade with the Vikings comparison. A QB with an 18-15 TD to INT ratio and Barnett vs. a QB with a 23-5 ratio. You just can't include picks you get from other teams and include them in a specific trade comparison unless you acquired them from the original trade. The Eagles didn't turn the #2 pick or the 4th round pick into Barnett. They turned Bradford who was no part of the Browns into that pick. This is clearly a cause and effect trade. Does the Carson Wentz trade-up lead to the Sam Bradford trade? Absolutely, and I think it's crazy to think otherwise. The Eagles took on $11M mere months after re-signing him. If you want to make a straight trade-up evaluation, that's probably a different discussion. Otherwise, I think you have to include the subsequent follow-up trade as part of the evaluation. EDIT: The best analogy I could make would be the Colts' decision to release Peyton Manning and drafting Andrew Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Just now, CWood21 said: This is clearly a cause and effect trade. Does the Carson Wentz trade-up lead to the Sam Bradford trade? Absolutely, and I think it's crazy to think otherwise. The Eagles took on $11M mere months after re-signing him. If you want to make a straight trade-up evaluation, that's probably a different discussion. Otherwise, I think you have to include the subsequent follow-up trade as part of the evaluation. It is a straight up trade evaluation. This conversation is about who will end up with the better results of assets traded between the Browns and Eagles. If you credit Barnett from the Browns trade then the Eagles got hosed in the Viking trade because they have nothing that they can claim that they got back for Bradford because somehow the Browns gave them the Vikings pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 10 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said: It is a straight up trade evaluation. This conversation is about who will end up with the better results of assets traded between the Browns and Eagles. If you credit Barnett from the Browns trade then the Eagles got hosed in the Viking trade because they have nothing that they can claim that they got back for Bradford because somehow the Browns gave them the Vikings pick. By that logic, are we talking about what we would have done with the Browns' picks versus what the Browns actually did with their picks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohnson2009 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 This thread hurts my brain. Some of you guys are really failing logic 101 in your attempt to evaluate this trade. You can't add Derek Barnett to the Eagles side just to make it look better, the assets the browns gave them did not directly net them Derek Barnett. They gave up a QB for Derek Barnett. A QB who looked 10x better than Wentz last night too lololol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 8 hours ago, CWood21 said: By that logic, are we talking about what we would have done with the Browns' picks versus what the Browns actually did with their picks? Nope just what you did with the picks you received. If you trade Wentz for three firsts you can use that because those are assets that you got from the #2 pick that you received in the trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said: Nope just what you did with the picks you received. If you trade Wentz for three firsts you can use that because those are assets that you got from the #2 pick that you received in the trade. That doesn't really answer my question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas5737 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Just now, CWood21 said: That doesn't really answer my question... We already know what you would do with the picks, you would trade them for Wentz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 1 minute ago, Thomas5737 said: We already know what you would do with the picks, you would trade them for Wentz. Glad we could have this talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingOfNewYork Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 21 hours ago, mistakey said: Which one? Wentz or Kizer? Kizer very well could be a legitimate NFL quarterback as well. + 5 other starters. lol, give me Wentz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistakey Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 Just now, KingOfTheDot said: lol, give me Wentz. lol, ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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