***Spoiler Thread*** Avengers: Endgame

[dtait93]

7 minutes ago, Deadpulse said:

He cant affect his own future, only create a NEW future vis-a-vi an alternate timeline. Our/His future remains separate from that.

There can’t be an alternate timeline though if he returned all the stones at the exact moment they were taken.

[DoleINGout]

Infinity War > Endgame

[RavensfanRD]

7 hours ago, Forge said:

This is actually something I've had a problem with in regards to his ending. Like, I feel like Cap is not the type of person that would have just been sitting around "living his life" while all that mess was going on? Just seems like a weird decision. I don't know...maybe some people do think that is something he would do, but it's kind of hard for me to wrap my head around. 

I don't find it too hard to believe.

"Whatever it takes"

And it took him sitting on the sideline, playing house with Peggy. 

[Broncofan]

16 hours ago, dtait93 said:

Okay so when Cap meets old Peggy (in Civil War I think?) laying in bed dying of age how does that scene for example stay the same if he’s actually an old man at the end of Endgame?

Because CW Cap still has 15 years of his life that stays the same - as he isn’t given any more knowledge to change his actions  post-CW.   Keep in mind Peggy doesn’t reveal who she married.   I see that as a really clever twist - we know now that guy was Endgame Cap.    Who again doesn’t alter history any further by staying on the sidelines.  Including having Peggy stay silent on her deathbed.   Given everyone knew who Cap was even in 1945 generally speaking, but no one in Carter’s family knew Steve Rogers, I could see that the secret literally stayed between the 2 of them.   For all the reasons cited.  

The 2 parts about how Endgame played out and time travel I see problems with:  

1.  2014 Nebula getting killed off.   2023 Nebula shouldn’t exist if it’s 1 timeline.  No matter what else gets explained away it’s hard to see how that works. 

2.  Loki still surviving post stone - return, assuming what the Ancient One and Banner say is true.  That’s easier to explain if Banner was wrong (but it’s convenient writing if that’s what they say...convenient for Disney+).  I mean let’s face it this was a first time event.   

The time steal will always be the one valid criticism to why Endgame isn’t flawless and IMO this shouldn’t ever be argued in terms of writing.   But it actually works for Gamora / Cap.   Those 2 I get the results.   It doesn’t work for Nebula though.    So I get the criticism when it comes to Nebula / Loki (the former having no outs I can see).   But it works with both Gamora and Cap IMO pretty well. 

There is 1 other intended consequence though - that would mean Cap got it on with his niece.   I could see Sharon not realizing who Steve was.   But still pretty funny Marvel just gave us an Oldboy / Back to the Future type moment after mocking Back to the Future in-movie.  

Edited April 29, 2019 by Broncofan

[NcFinest9erFan]

2 hours ago, RavensfanRD said:

I don't find it too hard to believe.

"Whatever it takes"

And it took him sitting on the sideline, playing house with Peggy. 

I believe the Russos said they weren't done with Evans yet? so maybe we get a mini series on disney + showing what all happened when he went back..

 

I am still curious as to how would he return the soul stone?

[NcFinest9erFan]

On 4/26/2019 at 1:32 PM, D82 said:

I figured maybe his consciousness was uploaded and stored away by Suri?

yes, that was one of the theories but I guess not.

[RamRod]

The real hero

[DoleINGout]

@Broncofan My understanding was that there was no way to go back and change the past from the 2019 Endgame reality. Eventually the 2014 timeline is restored by Captain America and the 2014 Nebula who was killed in 2019 was only killed in a paradoxical temporary way. The 2014 Nebula who was killed in 2019 Endgame is an example of the main/accurate timeline temporarily being shifted like the timekeeper woman explained but then restored the way the Hulk/Banner explained back to her. Captain America was designed to do all of this. I think it is Captain America's endgame all along to serve as he did because it was engineered into his being. It's a credit to the lab that created Captain America way back when to have been able to play out the way things were needed to happen in order for them to defeat the ultimate threat to Earth in Thanos. In other words, Captain America is meant to go back and carry out the mission of returning the Infinity Stones that were taken. Meanwhile Steve Rogers always existed secretly alongside Captain America who was fused with or born of Rogers' DNA. Essentially two Steve Rogers existed all along; Steve Rogers himself and the one inside Captain America.

Edited April 29, 2019 by DoleINGout

[dtait93]

2 hours ago, Broncofan said:

Because CW Cap still has 15 years of his life that stays the same - as he isn’t given any more knowledge to change his actions  post-CW.   Keep in mind Peggy doesn’t reveal who she married.   I see that as a really clever twist - we know now that guy was Endgame Cap.    Who again doesn’t alter history any further by staying on the sidelines.  Including having Peggy stay silent on her deathbed.   Given everyone knew who Cap was even in 1945 generally speaking, but no one in Carter’s family knew Steve Rogers, I could see that the secret literally stayed between the 2 of them.   For all the reasons cited.  

The 2 parts about how Endgame played out and time travel I see problems with:  

1.  2014 Nebula getting killed off.   2023 Nebula shouldn’t exist if it’s 1 timeline.  No matter what else gets explained away it’s hard to see how that works. 

2.  Loki still surviving post stone - return of what Banner says is true.  That’s easier to explain that Banner was wrong.  I mean let’s face it this was a first time event.   

The time steal will always by the one valid criticism to why Endgame isn’t flawless and IMO this shouldn’t ever be argued in terms of writing.   But it actually works for Gamora / Cap.   Those 2 I get the results.   It doesn’t work for Nebula though.    So I get the criticism when it comes to Nebula / Loki (the former having no outs I can see).   But it works with both Gamora and Cap IMO pretty well. 

There is 1 other intended consequence though - that would mean Cap got it on with his niece.   I could see Sharon not realizing who Steve was.   But still pretty funny Marvel just gave us an Oldboy / Back to the Future type moment after mocking Back to the Future in-movie.  

That still begs the question...if there can only be one reality, how do all of the events leading up to Civil War stay the same with Cap sitting on the sidelines? They couldn’t and therefor Cap never gets stuck in the ice and doesn’t  stay young to have that moment with old Peggy. The only way this makes sense is if there are 2 Cap’s all along. 1 that lives his best life in secrecy with Peggy and 1 that runs the course we saw him run over the last 11 years. Unless I am missing something?

[Broncofan]

 

 

 

2

1 minute ago, dtait93 said:

That still begs the question...if there can only be one reality, how do all of the events leading up to Civil War stay the same with Cap sitting on the sidelines? They couldn’t and therefor Cap never gets stuck in the ice and doesn’t  stay young to have that moment with old Peggy. The only way this makes sense is if there are 2 Cap’s all along. 1 that lives his best life in secrecy with Peggy and 1 that runs the course we saw him run over the last 11 years. Unless I am missing something?

You got it, 2 Caps.   One from 2023 that went back to 1945, and the 1945 frozen in the ice.    Just like how there were 2 Nebulas in the fight scene, 2 beings from different times existing the same reality (also think Old Spock and new Spock in JJ Abrams in the Star Trek reboot).

Edited April 29, 2019 by Broncofan

[Deadpulse]

10 hours ago, dtait93 said:

There can’t be an alternate timeline though if he returned all the stones at the exact moment they were taken.

The stones are not the only thing that can cause an alternate timeline. You are right, there isnt an alternate timeline because Cap was able to create a loop and not interfere in his own future. 

[dtait93]

5 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

You got it, 2 Caps.   One from 2023 that went back to 1945, and the 1945 frozen in the ice.   

Yep that makes the most sense. Now, if they didn’t have Peggy reveal who her husband was because it was him that’s pretty weird and gross they wrote for him to kiss his niece lol.

[Broncofan]

41 minutes ago, DoleINGout said:

@Broncofan My understanding was that there was no way to go back and change the past from the 2019 Endgame reality. Eventually the 2014 timeline is restored by Captain America and the 2014 Nebula who was killed in 2019 was only killed in a paradoxical temporary way. The 2014 Nebula who was killed in 2019 Endgame is an example of the main/accurate timeline temporarily being shifted like the timekeeper woman explained but then restored the way the Hulk/Banner explained back to her. Captain America was designed to do all of this. I think it is Captain America's endgame all along to serve as he did because it was engineered into his being. It's a credit to the lab that created Captain America way back when to have been able to play out the way things were needed to happen in order for them to defeat the ultimate threat to Earth in Thanos. In other words, Captain America is meant to go back and carry out the mission of returning the Infinity Stones that were taken. Meanwhile Steve Rogers always existed secretly alongside Captain America who was fused with or born of Rogers' DNA. Essentially two Steve Rogers existed all along; Steve Rogers himself and the one inside Captain America.

Here's the thing - the scientists were saying that the stones can't undo past realities in 2023.   That's their premise.  But as Banner's talk on the roof indicated, alternate realities would then be created without sending the stones back - what they were trying to prevent.   They were discussing that 2023 snaps can't change past events.   So this solution was what would for sure work - they didn't have the luxury of trying more than once, so this option in their minds was the only one.   

Having said that, the whole notion of time travellers going back and changing the past wasn't really discussed, they in fact dismissed the idea of going back and strangling baby Thanos, because of the unknown other effects - and that is exactly what Time Traveller Cap decided to do.  Even then there's some risk in going back to Peggy, but it makes sense that Cap would then decide to do nothing else extra, to preserve the only alternate reality that ends in them defeating Thanos and saving everyone.   Even if it only created an alternate reality and didn't impact the one we saw - Cap would be living in that new reality.  Remember, there were 14 million alternate realities possible, even if this result was preserved - the new Cap travelling in the past would be living in a different one if he changed the events of the future.  Like Doc Strange said - only 1 reality worked, so I imagine Cap kept that in mind by staying out of the sidelines the whole time.

Great topic, BTW.  I can't argue the criticism of Nebula, I see no logical out there.   Loki's premise sticks on Banner being wrong - which to me is very iffy writing, but Disney+ won't care lol.  This one (and Gamora & Vision returning later), though, is really elegant, no problem here.

[Broncofan]

4 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

Yep that makes the most sense. Now, if they didn’t have Peggy reveal who her husband was because it was him that’s pretty weird and gross they wrote for him to kiss his niece lol.

Consider this - no one else but Peggy would have known who Steve was, it was wartime when they met, and she was away from Britain/US.   If she's going to keep a secret, it probably includes her family - to preserve the timeline as much as possible, as little contamination as possible (especially since now we know what Sharon ends up as, as icky as it is, having a SHIELD agent from the future receive info....major risk of butterfly effect there). 

It's pretty icky for sure, though.  No doubt lol.  Wonder what Time Traveller Steve must have thought when he realized he pulled an Old Boy lol.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Broncofan

[DoleINGout]

46 minutes ago, Deadpulse said:

The stones are not the only thing that can cause an alternate timeline. You are right, there isnt an alternate timeline because Cap was able to create a loop and not interfere in his own future. 

Happy Birthday